Israel’s public image problem

By ⋅ April 5, 2011 ⋅ Post a comment
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(Photo: Yoel-f)

By Matthew Bell

Israel’s Defense Minister Ehud Barak has warned that the country could face a “diplomatic tsunami” later this year. He was referring to an effort by the Palestinians to win recognition from the United Nations as an independent state. If that were to happen, Israeli officials have said that the country could experience unprecedented international isolation. These fears help explain a renewed Israeli effort aimed at boosting the country’s global image.

That effort was on the agenda when a small group of Israeli lawmakers visited Brandeis University Monday as part of the Ruderman Fellows Program, which is designed to help Israeli politicians better understand the American Jewish community. Brandeis would seem like friendly location. The school outside of Boston is named after Louis Brandeis, a Supreme Court Justice and Zionism supporter. It also has a lot of Jewish students, and a handful of them chose to disrupt the event with heckling.

One of the heckled officials was Avi Dichter, a member of Israel’s parliament and former head of internal security. From the stage, Dichter shrugged off the interruption.

“Well, thank you very much. It’s much easier than to crack down against terrorists,” he said.

But afterward, Dichter suggested he and the other Israeli lawmakers didn’t come to the United States to dismiss criticism from American Jews; they came to listen.

“It’s the first time to really listen and not to brief,” Dichter said.

When Israelis hear criticism from their Jewish friends abroad, many have the same reaction: if you want Israel to change, then move to Israel and vote; otherwise, keep quiet. But Dichter said Jews living in the US and elsewhere should have a say in shaping Israel’s policies.

“They have many rights to tell us what should be done in order to increase the engagement and to strengthen the links between the Jews overseas and the state of Israel, not only with Judaism, but with the state of Israel,” Dichter said.

Israel is intent on strengthening those links, especially at a time when the country is feeling increasingly isolated.

Global image problem

This week at Bar Ilan University outside of Tel Aviv, experts in public diplomacy and some Israeli officials gathered to talk about Israel’s global image problem. Miri Eisen, a former spokeswoman for the Israeli military, said it’s urgent.

“Israel now is the Goliath, the Palestinians are the David, and we still see ourselves as a David versus Goliath,” she said.

Eisen said Israel needs to do a better job of explaining its actions to the rest of the world. Sometimes that means Israeli military action, she added, like the war in Gaza two years ago that killed an estimated 1,400 Palestinians.

“One of the aspects that we need to do is say, in very non-PC terms, we’re damned if we do and we’re damned if we don’t,” Eisen said. “Israel needs to make our policy choices. When it comes to defending our civilians, we need to be able to act.”

In the past, Israel has used the word “hasbara” to describe its efforts at explaining itself. But Israeli commentator Ron Ben-Yishai said the term is too repentant.

Hasbara includes a strong element of apology: “Like the famous saying in America — every time someone is being caught doing something wrong, you hear, it’s not what you think it is,” he said.

Israel as the bad guy

Others suggest Israeli diplomats might want to consider just changing the subject. Nicholas Cull, a professor of public diplomacy at the University of Southern California, said the Palestinians have a powerful narrative that paints Israel as the bad guy. Cull said Israel could put forward other narratives.

For instance, he said, there’s an Israeli government program called The Voices of Israel‚ that makes a point of seeking out people who are Israeli, but also happen to be black, or gay, or Muslim, or from Arab families, and asks them to talk about what Israel means to them.

“And what you find,” Cull said, “is that these people are proud to say that they enjoy rights and a quality of life that they wouldn’t enjoy anywhere else in the region.”

Early this month, there was an indication of just how tough Israel‚s public diplomacy challenge is. A BBC-sponsored survey about global attitudes suggested that Israel is among the least popular countries on earth. Just three countries had more negative ratings: Pakistan, North Korea and Iran.

Discussion

31 comments for “Israel’s public image problem”

  • http://profiles.google.com/ami.isseroff Ami Isseroff

    The article asserts:
    “Early this month, there was an indication of just how tough Israel‚s public diplomacy challenge is. A BBC-sponsored survey about global attitudes suggested that Israel is among the least popular countries on earth. Just three countries had more negative ratings: Pakistan, North Korea and Iran.”

    The survey actually reported that Israel’s popularity improved somewhat relative to previous years. The statement ought to be seen for what it is: libelous. Anyone can read the actual survey results and see.

    BBC is at it again, spreading viciuous lies about Israel, throwing integrity and professionalism to the four wind Of course with smear publicity like yours working overtime, there isd no chance of Israel ever gaining much popularity is the?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Kwende-Idrissa-Madu/1093618153 Kwende Idrissa Madu

    Most sensible people do not support the apartheid-like policies and the seizure of the remaining Palestinians lands which the present Israeli government seems hell bent on pursuing. At the risk of being branded an anti-Semite might I humbly suggest that this these actions are the cause of Israel’s “image” problem??

    • Anonymous

      The comparison to apartheid is a false comparison. Furthermore, the “seizure of remaining Palestinian lands” is not taking place, although I admit it makes good headlines to those inclined to believe the worst of the Israelis. For those with short memories (or who are not old enough to remember and have chosen to selectively read history), at the end of the 1967 war, the Israelis immediately offered to return the West Bank to Jordan in exchange for a peace treaty along the 1967 borders. The answer was a resounding NO. Prior to that, when the UN partitioned the mandatory territory of Palestine (that’s “territory”, not “independent nation” of Palestine, the Arabs rejected that as well. There will be a Palestinian state in the West Bank one day, one which I am sure the Palestinians will demand it be free of Jews, in stark contrast to the million Arabs living inside Israel as citizens. Until that day, calling Israel “apartheid” does nothing other than muddy some already very complicated waters.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Kwende-Idrissa-Madu/1093618153 Kwende Idrissa Madu

        It appears that I have been deceived while I cannot speak to the actions of the victors of the 67 war. I am reasonably sure that the Netanyahu government has never offered to return to the 67 borders in exchange for anything. Quite the contrary they have demanded that the exiled Palestinians accept the “new demographic realities” as the Bush administration so succinctly put it. While the comparison to apartheid might be in bad taste to the pro-Israel lobby I dare say a Palestinian attempting to pass safely through an Israeli check-point will find it a valid point.

        • Anonymous

          I would certainly agree that Netanyahu is not making the offer that the Israeli government made in 1967, but the offer was made then and is part of the context of this mess, as was the rejection of the offer. No side in this mess 34 years later is the total good guy or the total bad guy, and attempts by either side’s supporters to entirely blame the other side don’t advance solutions, since the problem is far more complex than that. Many mistakes have been made on both sides, but the apartheid label does not fit. As for Palestinians attempting to pass through checkpoints, I don’t know if you are referring to checkpoints in the West Bank itself or if you are referring to checkpoints coming over the green line. I understand that it is an enormous hassle either way. As for those checkpoints for Palestinians within the West Bank, they did not exist until the intifada, and they then became a security measure. However, over the past few years, as the PA has done a steadily improving job of providing security on the West Bank, the Israelis have removed a large number of those checkpoints and continue to do so. If you were referring to checkpoints crossing the green line, I call that border control, which any sovereign nation has a right to do I know that if I get on a plane here to go to Israel, the security is relentless, no matter who you are. If you try to come into the US, there are border checks too, but there isn’t a history of people coming into the US to blow up shopping centers and pizza parlors. Frankly, I have no problems with strict border control into Israel, whether it’s from the West Bank or from London, because there is a very good reason for it. And it’s still not apartheid.

        • Anonymous

          I would certainly agree that Netanyahu is not making the offer that the Israeli government made in 1967, but the offer was made then and is part of the context of this mess, as was the rejection of the offer. No side in this mess 34 years later is the total good guy or the total bad guy, and attempts by either side’s supporters to entirely blame the other side don’t advance solutions, since the problem is far more complex than that. Many mistakes have been made on both sides, but the apartheid label does not fit. As for Palestinians attempting to pass through checkpoints, I don’t know if you are referring to checkpoints in the West Bank itself or if you are referring to checkpoints coming over the green line. I understand that it is an enormous hassle either way. As for those checkpoints for Palestinians within the West Bank, they did not exist until the intifada, and they then became a security measure. However, over the past few years, as the PA has done a steadily improving job of providing security on the West Bank, the Israelis have removed a large number of those checkpoints and continue to do so. If you were referring to checkpoints crossing the green line, I call that border control, which any sovereign nation has a right to do I know that if I get on a plane here to go to Israel, the security is relentless, no matter who you are. If you try to come into the US, there are border checks too, but there isn’t a history of people coming into the US to blow up shopping centers and pizza parlors. Frankly, I have no problems with strict border control into Israel, whether it’s from the West Bank or from London, because there is a very good reason for it. And it’s still not apartheid.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Kwende-Idrissa-Madu/1093618153 Kwende Idrissa Madu

        It appears that I have been deceived while I cannot speak to the actions of the victors of the 67 war. I am reasonably sure that the Netanyahu government has never offered to return to the 67 borders in exchange for anything. Quite the contrary they have demanded that the exiled Palestinians accept the “new demographic realities” as the Bush administration so succinctly put it. While the comparison to apartheid might be in bad taste to the pro-Israel lobby I dare say a Palestinian attempting to pass safely through an Israeli check-point will find it a valid point.

  • Anonymous

    > When Israelis hear criticism from their Jewish friends abroad, many
    > have the same reaction: if you want Israel to change, then move to
    > Israel and vote; otherwise, keep quiet.

    This is a good suggestion, but Israel won’t allow you to become a citizen if you’re not Jewish. So, if you’re Catholic, Muslim, Hindu, Jain you can’t become an Israeli and then you’re not allowed to vote.

    Only Jews are allowed to change Israel. They’re the only ones allowed to have a voice in what Israel does.

    This is why Israel is called an apartheid state.

    Let the Palestinians vote. They have more right to decide on the future or Israel than some Jewish person that’s never set foot in the Middle East, don’t you think?

    • Anonymous

      Unfortunately, your facts are wrong and so your conclusion is wrong, too. Israel Arabs (non-Jews) are citizens of Israel (Druze, bedouins, etc) with a vote and representation in parliament (Knesset). To assert that Jews are “the only ones allowed to have a voice” is just obviously and demonstrably untrue. This population, about 1/6 of total, is not a majority – this is why the label “apartheid” is also untrue. It is also untrue that non-Jews are unable to obtain citizenship, they are just not given automatic citizenship under the law of return.

      It is unfortunate that you have not seen to attain even a basic understanding of Israeli politics (i.e. who can vote, which parties have representation in Knesset) before making assertions that are plainly based on fallacy. I am sorry, but aside from the first three lines (i have heard that argument, too), none of what you said is actually true.

      • Anonymous

        I had a lengthy reply to this, and whoever controls this page, simply deleted it.

        Let’s see if this gets past the censors.

        Look up the Kadan Family of Katzir
        Look up Ethiopian blood disposal in Israel.
        Look this up in quotes “Marriage to an Arab is national treason”
        Note that settlements in the West Bank are exclusively settled by Jewish people, you can check that with Wikipedia, and you can note the fact that all the world calls them “Jewish settlements” and only the US press calls them “Israeli settlements”

        That pretty much summarizes everything I wrote, and it didn’t take me long to trot that out, not that the person that controls this page is likely to allow to see it.

    • Anonymous

      This is not correct information. You do not have to be Jewish to become a citizen. If you are a Jew, you are entitled to automatic citizenship upon proof of being a Jew (with the attendant responsibilities like paying taxes and serving in the army). If you are not a Jew, then just as in virtually every other country on earth, including the US, you apply and then you wait. Israel’s preferential immigration policy for Jews is a direct result of, among other things, WWII, when Jews could not escape Europe because so many places would not accept immigrants (especially Jewish ones), and therefore died in the millions. As far as Israel being called an “apartheid state”, that would only be said by somebody who either has never been in Israel and seen it, or somebody who has no understanding of what “apartheid” really is.

      • Anonymous

        “This is not correct information. You do not have to be Jewish to become a citizen. If you are a Jew, you are entitled to automatic citizenship upon proof of being a Jew (with the attendant responsibilities like paying taxes and serving in the army). If you are not a Jew, then just as in virtually every other country on earth, including the US, you apply and then you wait. ”

        Wait wait.

        So, if the United States implemented a policy that required to prove that you were born a Protestant, or has a Protestant parent, and would immediately allow such a person to immigrate without restriction – but if you were Jewish, then you’d be put on a waiting list, and one not likely to get you accepted – you’d be totally alright with that?

        It’s funny how bigots bigotry when they’re not the target – isn’t it bigot?

        • Anonymous

          So, why is it that every other national group can have its nationalist movement, from the Tibetans to the Kurds to the Palestinians to the Russians, but when the Jews do the same, then it’s racism? Want to know what racism is? It is a place like Saudi Arabia, which does not allow either churches or synagogues to be built, and which had to change its laws to allow Henry Kissinger to set foot in the country when he was Secretary of State because he is a Jew, and Jews are not allowed in Saudi Arabia. It is what the Palestinians desire for the West Bank and Gaza – territories completely devoid of Jews (and don’t tell me that Israel is the same. There are over a million Arab citizens of Israel, voting, serving in the government, paying taxes, etc., and they aren’t fleeing from this supposedly racist place). It is what the US had, in an institutionalized form, until the civil rights movement, which wasn’t all that long ago. My guess is that if you asked most African Americans, they would tell you that there is still plenty of racism alive and unfortunately well right here in the US. If you understood what Zionism is, you would not call it racist.

          As to your statements about whether I would be okay with a US policy regarding immediately citizenship for Protestants but everybody else would have to wait in line, first, a few corrections. Conversion to Judaism IS what Israel considers “Jewish”, provided it is done properly. Just as an adult baptism isn’t merely dunking in water but requires studying and the acceptance of certain religious beliefs, so too with Judaism. You are mistaken as to what you think Israel considers “Jewish”. I don’t understand your point about DNA – yes, you can be a Jew without believing, or you can be a Jew by adopting the belief system and being converted, either one works, and either one is acceptable in Israel or within the Jewish communities in the rest of the world. The last sentence of your paragraph in which you ask the DNA question proves my point as to why there is a preferential path to citizenship for Jews coming to Israel – you make the assumption that if Jews were put on a waiting list they would be “not likely to get accepted”, precisely because they are Jews. It is precisely because we were not accepted when our communities were being destroyed in Europe, we were not allowed to come to other countries without waiting, or once quotas were filled, and the result was millions of dead including half of my relatives, that Israel created a form of safe-haven for Jews the world over. I don’t call that racism, I call it a historically necessary safety net.

          And lest you believe that preferential treatment like this equals racism, you really need to look at the immigration policies of this country, the US. There were quotas here for decades. The immigration officials still decide who comes in and who does not, still makes all kinds of people wait for all kinds of reasons, sometimes for decades. If you are white, European and educated, you will have a much easier time coming to the US and becoming a citizen than if you are not. That may not be fair, that may not be right, but that is the way it is. If you believe that the Israeli policy of granting preferential treatment to Jews and making everybody else jump through the same kinds of hoops like they would have to if they wanted to come here is racist, then so are the policies of the US and many, many other countries. I’m sorry to say that many of your basic assumptions about Israel are mistaken, and I think you also need to look at Israel in the context of other nations as well, and judge it by the same standards, not by a standard so high that no country, including the US, can attain. Better yet, why not visit and see for yourself? Calling me a bigot won’t change basic facts.

          • Anonymous

            > So, why is it that every other national group can have its
            > nationalist movement, from the Tibetans to the Kurds to
            > the Palestinians to the Russians,

            OK – we agree on something.

            Israel is a backward nation which is nothing like a Western Nation. It’s like the Tibetans, the Kurds, the Palestinians or the Russians.

            This my point. Israel isn’t like The United States, nor is it like Canada, or Sweeden, or Germany. It’s a backward racist nation of racist troglodyte hicks. It’s a throwback. It’s not a modern Western nation. It’s more like Nazi Germany than it’s like a little Western nation in the Middle East. It’s backward nation of racists.

            Any national movements in Australia, Canada, France, England, Sweeden, German, the US – are laughed off the stage. But not Israel, the 5th column is real there – Likud a direct descendant from the Irgun terrorist organization is a legitimate party. Israel is not a western, it’s at least 50 years behind any Western nation. It’s a group of bigots, that’s the only thing that ties that nation together.

            You’re defending a NATIONALIST MOVEMENT and you see nothing wrong with that. That’s what the Nazis did, the fascists in Italy did, the KKK did, the whites in South Africa did. Israel isn’t a western nation.

          • Anonymous

            I’m sorry, but this rant does not really deserve an answer. I wish you would go there, and see for yourself, because it is clear from what you have written that you never have been there, and have no first hand knowledge. Actually, Israel is much more like Canada, Sweden or Germany than it is like the other countries surrounding it. Calling it names won’t change that. It is a modern western nation (which is part of what pisses off its neighbors) with freedom of the press, freedom of religion, an independent judiciary, and the rule of law, unlike its neighbors. The difference between my defense of a nationalist movement and the lovely company you have lumped me with is that my nationalist movement is not based on the destruction of other people. My nationalist movement does not call for the death of anybody else, only for a country for Jews. I’m sorry you will never get to see it, but it is clear from your comments and misconceptions that you would never entertain the possibility that you might just be wrong. I wish you luck with your hatred – it must be cold company.

          • Anonymous

            > I’m sorry, but this rant does not really deserve an answer.
            > I wish you would go there, and see for yourself,

            I work in the Bay Area, as an electrical engineer. One of my requirements for me taking a contract is that I don’t have to go to Israel.

            Not all my friends do this however. My non white friends, have trouble getting food at a restaurant unless they are with white colleagues. They get searched at every opportunity when they are in Israel. I’m not really thinking I want to go such a place, honestly.

            What I wrote is entirely true – which is why “it doesn’t deserve an answer”. As embarrassed as I am about the United States from 1850 to 1960, is how I feel about Israel, but Israel still tries to justify it. If you were white and protestant in 1940, no problem to be in the US. If you were Chinese, big problem. Japanese, very big problem. Black – problem.

            The Kadan family an Arab family, had to sue to the Israeli high court to get the right to buy land controlled by the ILA – which controls 93% of the land in Israel. It was once called the Jewish Land Administration, but Orwellian newspeak fixed that but just like the Department of War, their name may have changed, but not their mission.

            > Actually, Israel is much more like Canada, Sweden or Germany
            > than it is like the other countries surrounding it.

            Not when it comes to immigration or protecting minority rights. I don’t care how they dress, what sort of stupid television they watch, or what sort of cars are commonly driven there. That’s irrelevant to me.

          • Anonymous

            I can’t believe it! You make absolutely sure that you will never go there, so you can never see the reality. How sad. I spent years there, and have friends from all kinds of backgrounds there, as well as friends from here who have traveled there, none reported the kinds of problems you are describing from your non-white colleagues, and I myself, with two good eyes, have not seen what you describe (although I did see it here when I went to dinner with 5 African American friends in northwest Indiana and we waited over an hour for service at a restaurant – kind of makes you never want to set foot in the USA, doesn’t it?)

            As for the Kadan family, they had a right to sue, and they won. However, if you would only look to the other countries in the region, you would see that if a Jew tried to buy land in many of them, not only would he not be allowed to do so, but he would have no redress to the Supreme Court or any other court. Again, it comes back to context. Israel is far from perfect, but so long as you hold it up to a standard of perfection, while never demanding that same standard from other countries (especially those surrounding it), it is a bogus standard.

            As for Israel and immigration or protecting minority rights, again, you are mistaken. What other countries in the region are taking in Sudanese and Darfurian refugees who manage to make it across Egypt (where they are often shot as they try to make it to the Israeli border)? Why must Israel be, in your world, the only country to just let in anybody who comes knocking at the door? Why are they not allowed to control immigration just as is any other country? Why the double standard? As to minority rights, when is the last time there was an attack on a religious minority in Israel (did you see the bombing of the Coptic church in Egypt a few months ago? Or doesn’t that count as an issue of minority rights?) You really do not know whereof you speak and, since you are bound and determined not to challenge your belief system and go there, you never will know.

          • Anonymous

            I can’t believe it! You make absolutely sure that you will never go there, so you can never see the reality. How sad. I spent years there, and have friends from all kinds of backgrounds there, as well as friends from here who have traveled there, none reported the kinds of problems you are describing from your non-white colleagues, and I myself, with two good eyes, have not seen what you describe (although I did see it here when I went to dinner with 5 African American friends in northwest Indiana and we waited over an hour for service at a restaurant – kind of makes you never want to set foot in the USA, doesn’t it?)

            As for the Kadan family, they had a right to sue, and they won. However, if you would only look to the other countries in the region, you would see that if a Jew tried to buy land in many of them, not only would he not be allowed to do so, but he would have no redress to the Supreme Court or any other court. Again, it comes back to context. Israel is far from perfect, but so long as you hold it up to a standard of perfection, while never demanding that same standard from other countries (especially those surrounding it), it is a bogus standard.

            As for Israel and immigration or protecting minority rights, again, you are mistaken. What other countries in the region are taking in Sudanese and Darfurian refugees who manage to make it across Egypt (where they are often shot as they try to make it to the Israeli border)? Why must Israel be, in your world, the only country to just let in anybody who comes knocking at the door? Why are they not allowed to control immigration just as is any other country? Why the double standard? As to minority rights, when is the last time there was an attack on a religious minority in Israel (did you see the bombing of the Coptic church in Egypt a few months ago? Or doesn’t that count as an issue of minority rights?) You really do not know whereof you speak and, since you are bound and determined not to challenge your belief system and go there, you never will know.

          • Anonymous

            > I can’t believe it! You make absolutely sure that you will
            > never go there, so you can never see the reality. How sad.

            What did I need to go to Nazi Germany to find out that was a society that wasn’t worth emulating?

            How about Apartheid South Africa? Did I have to go there to find out “reality”?

            How about 1950′s USA? Did I have to be around there to experience segregation first hand in order to judge it?

            You guys are a freaking joke. Why would I want to go to a nation that would exclude me from citizenship based on who my parents were? Why would I want to go to a nation which bars intermarriage between Israelis and Palestinians? Why would I want to go to a nation that had 2 prime ministers who were murderers and terrorists and were celebrated for it? Why would I want to go to a nation in which the First Baptist Church in Jerusalem was burned down by the majority bigots that run the nation? Why would I want to go to a nation in which a single ethnic group has their own towns in 93% of the land, and which builds more similar towns in the West Bank on land stolen from the indigenous people there?

            Why would you want to live there? I mean, unless you happen to be the preferential ethnic group? Kind of like how a German Nazi defends 1939 Germany. That’s all you are. You’re a bigot because you’re allowed to be, for the time being. All nations like this, eventually collapse. Israel isn’t any different.

          • Anonymous

            You wouldn’t need to go to Nazi Germany or South Africa or 1950′s USA to find out reality if you understood it. The difference is that you don’t understand reality in Israel. You WOULD NOT be excluded from citizenship based upon who your parents are, you would have to go through a waiting period just like if you were British or Argentinian and wanted to be a US citizen. Sorry if you are offended by the one place in the world that would offer something preferential to Jews, but given history and how many times Jews have been given the total complete opposite of even normal treatment, I don’t have a problem with that. As for the intermarriage question, a) it has happened, and can happen, by people going to Cypress or anywhere else have having a civil service, because the rabbinate controls issues of marriage for Jews; b) would you visit Arab countries? As I have written in other replies to you, and which you have steadfastly refused to even acknowledge, in most of the surrounding countries, life is far more restrictive. Not only can a Muslim not marry a non-Muslim, but a Jew or a Christian cannot even have a house of worship. Conversion from Islam to another religion is punishable by death (as is being gay). Non-Muslim minorities are routinely harassed. In some places they are confined to the equivalent of ghettos, in some places their churches are routinely desecrated or destroyed (not to mention the worshipers being murdered) with state sanction. But it appears that Israel alone receives your condemnation and hatred in that arena. And c) lest you get all excited about the rabbinate controlling issues of marriage in Israel, the Muslim religious authorities control that area of life in Muslim countries as well, so if you will condemn Israel for it, then you must condemn the Muslim countries for it as well. And just because Israel or the Arab countries have personal status issues controlled by religious authorities does not make it inherently wrong – it is merely different that in the US. It is how those issues are controlled that is important. I can assure you, nobody dies in Israel for marrying outside their ethnic group (unless you count honor killings, but that is occasionally done by your champions the Palestinians, to their own women, not by Israelis), nobody dies for converting, nobody dies for being gay. While we’re at it, nobody riots over cartoons and kills others for that, either.

            As for having prime ministers who were terrorists, I’m afraid that the Brits considered George Washington a terrorist as well. And if Yasir Arafat had lived long enough to become the president of the state of Palestine (or if Marwan Barghouti becomes the president in the future), then the Palestinians would also have had a president who was a terrorist. I won’t even go into the distinction between one who targets military targets as opposed to pizza parlors and civilian buses, because we already know you have a double standard. I have positively no clue as to what you are talking about regarding the First Baptist Church in Jerusalem, so I would be curious as to what you refer, but I do know about the Coptic church in Egypt which was fire-bombed a few months ago. But, again, I guess that’s okay with you, since there is no chance it was Jews perpetrating that violence. Muslim on Muslim violence (as in Shi’a vs. Sunni), or Muslim on non-Muslim violence apparently doesn’t rate any comment or comparison from you.

            And this thing about 93% of towns being controlled by a single ethnic group? You must not travel much. What majority of towns in Spain are controlled by Spaniards? In France by the French, in China by the Chinese, in Japan by the Japanese? As for the West Bank, some of the land was appropriated, yes. Some of the land was purchased from the indigenous people as well. Let’s not even talk about Jordan starting the war on that front and losing, which is how the Israelis came to control it anyway. But you live in the Bay Area, in the US. How much of the land that comprises our country was “stolen” from the indigenous peoples? Does that make it right? No, not from today’s politically correct perspective (never mind that has been the way of the world from Day One). But you live in a country where the white European newcomers had NO claim of any kind, no prior or continuing presence and no history before they showed up on the shores a few hundred years ago. You live in a glass house, richardwicks, so you might not want to throw stones so fast.

          • Anonymous

            “You WOULD NOT be excluded from citizenship based upon who your parents are, you would have to go through a waiting period just like if you were British or Argentinian and wanted to be a US citizen. ”

            But not if I was Jewish. Isn’t that correct?

            “Sorry if you are offended by the one place in the world that would offer something preferential to Jews”

            I am offended by anyplace that offers any preferential treatment to anybody with a particular religion or genetic makeup.

            “but given history and how many times Jews have been given the total complete opposite of even normal treatment,”

            …apparently gives them the right to be bigots…

            “As for the intermarriage question, a) it has happened, and can happen, by people going to Cypress or anywhere else have having a civil service, because the rabbinate controls issues of marriage for Jews”

            So it’s a society dominated by a bunch of religious nuts. Just like any Western democracy, apparently. It’s called Anti-miscegenation laws and Hitler was somebody that enforced that as well. That strangely offends me too.

            “would you visit Arab countries?”

            Depends on the Arab country. I wouldn’t have a problem going to the UAE, certain parts of it. You know the UAE, that’s where a bunch of Israeli spies used passports from a dozen countries to do an extra judicial murder in Dubai.

            “As I have written in other replies to you, and which you have steadfastly refused to even acknowledge, in most of the surrounding countries, life is far more restrictive.”

            Not for long, the US and Israeli supported dictatorships are collapsing. Boo hoo.

            “Not only can a Muslim not marry a non-Muslim, but a Jew or a Christian cannot even have a house of worship”

            Just like Israel. I’m not here to defend the Arab dictatorships in the region. I think it’s funny that people like you always try to justify Israel’s racism by pointing out other places are worse. Duh. I know. It’s irrelevant.

            Israel is not a Western Democracy.

            “But it appears that Israel alone receives your condemnation and hatred in that arena. ”

            Israel can do whatever it pleases, as long as the Unites States isn’t defending it in the UN constantly, getting into proxy wars for it, and paying for it to keep up it’s occupation. Until that time comes, I’ll condemn Israel’s government.

            “lest you get all excited about the rabbinate controlling issues of marriage in Israel, the Muslim religious authorities”

            Again, it’s irrelevant. I’m not here to support the Arab dictatorships. I hope they collapse.

            “As for having prime ministers who were terrorists, I’m afraid that the Brits considered George Washington a terrorist as well”

            Well George Washington never blew up the King David hotel nor did he murder the UN mediator in 1948 to prevent peace negotiations, just after the very same UN created Israel.

            “And if Yasir Arafat ”

            Yasser Arafat was a common criminal only interested in lining his pockets with money.

            “become the president of the state of Palestine”

            There will never be a Palestinian state, as the Palestine papers demonstrated. Right now Israel is urging nations not to recognize a Palestinian state, as they continue to expand settlements. Eventually the Palestinians will realize there will never be a Palestinian state and will demand Israeli citizenship instead, and give up any claims to the West Bank or Gaza.

            All one has to do is look at the 1/2 million Jewish only settlements in the West Bank to realize this.

            “I won’t even go into the distinction between one who targets military targets as opposed to pizza parlors and civilian buses,”

            Yet Israel somehow manages to kill 10 times the number Palestinian children, than the Palestinians manage to kill Israeli children. Since 2000, 1463 Palestinians under the age of 18 have been killed in this conflict, and 124 Israeli children under the age of 18 have been killed.

            I believe Israel when they claim they don’t do indiscriminate killings. These are targeted killings.

            “I have positively no clue as to what you are talking about regarding the First Baptist Church in Jerusalem,”

            That was burned to the ground in 1982 by Zionist arsonists. The recommendation for them was to leave Jerusalem and build elsewhere.

            Another attempt was made to burn it down in 2007.

            “but I do know about the Coptic church in Egypt which was fire-bombed a few months ago”

            … but not about the Baptist Church on Narkis Street in central Jerusalem. Must have been embarrassing to the Israeli press to report on it.

            “And this thing about 93% of towns being controlled by a single ethnic group? You must not travel much.”

            I just know what the ILA is – don’t you? Appalling how ignorant you are about Israel.

            “What majority of towns in Spain are controlled by Spaniards?”

            And if you’re a Muslim Spaniard, you can buy land anywhere. However, the Kadan family who was Israeli and Muslim were denied the right to buy land in Katzir. They took that case to the Israeli high court. The Knesset swore to fight it, because Israel has no constitution to protect individual rights.

          • Anonymous

            You would not have to go through a waiting period if you were Jewish, that is correct. Sorry if you find that offensive, but if there had been a country with that policy in 1939, there were be 6 million more of us than there are now. However, the places that Jews wanted to go to escape had quotas, or waiting periods, like the US does, and therefore even though it became clear that it was a matter of life and death to get out of Europe, there was no place that would unquestioningly take Jews. Now, there is.

            As for being offended by any place that offers preferential treatment based on a particular religion or genetic make up, does that mean you are offended by any place that treats women as second class citizens, if not as outright property? After all, gender is genetic, and there are many places in the world where men receive preferential treatment while women are treated like chattel. Anyway, your argument doesn’t hold water, since anybody can become a citizen of Israel by going through the appropriate legal channels.

            Giving preferential treatment in one instance is hardly bigotry. I believe you are more likely to be in that column, since you have an opinion of Israel which is completely adverse to reality, but are unwilling to either accept it when somebody who knows the truth states it, or to go see for yourself.

            As for Israel being run by “a bunch of religious nuts” and comparing it to Nazi Germany, that statement only proves my point in the prior paragraph.

            As for the Israeli spies in the UAE, yes, and they were clumsy enough to get caught. But if you think that Israel is the only country with spies, or the only country that protects its interests in this manner, then you are terribly naive. You may not like it, but there are spies all over the world, from countries all over the world, doing this all the time, including the US. Just who do you think collected the information that enabled the US to kill Bin Laden on Sunday? Why is that so different from the Israelis killing a known terrorist? Bin Laden didn’t have a trial, so I guess this was an extra-judicial killing as well. You may not approve of it, but don’t be so naive – it is unfortunately the way of the world. If you want to make it better, don’t single out one country above all others as being wrong for doing it.

            You don’t think life will continue to be restrictive in the surrounding countries? I hope you are right, but I believe you are wrong. The surrounding countries are not about to become western democracies any time soon. See, to be a democracy, people have to have basic human rights and a voice. So far, I don’t see that happening all that fast.

            As for your comment that not allowing Jews or Christians to have houses of worship in Arab countries, it is not “just like Israel”. First, you are wrong – there are churches and mosques all over Israel. Second, I’m pleased that you are not defending Arab dictatorships, since there isn’t much of any merit to defend. The reason people like me point out comparisons (not justifying racism – Israel is not the racist society you believe it is) is precisely because people like you who criticize Israel do not criticize other countries which are light years worse than Israel is. Can Israel do better in certain areas? Of course it can, like any other country, but you criticize it in a vacuum, refuse to see it for yourself, hold Israel up to an impossible standard, then slam Israel when it alone fails to reach that standard. In a way, your argument is reverse racism, because it’s as if you never expect the surrounding countries to be better than they are, you give them a pass for their behavior towards their own citizens and towards others as if they cannot be responsible for themselves, as if they aren’t capable of being more democratic, more open, and more tolerant. That is racist against Arabs.

            Israel doesn’t do “whatever it pleases”, but it will damn well do what is necessary to survive. As for the US paying for the occupation, that doesn’t even bear a reply. And Israel is a western democracy. All citizens can vote – any religion, any background, any gender. There is a free and vocal press; gays have equal rights and serve in the military without any issues (unlike here in the US); politicians who run afoul of the law are prosecuted, not protected; there is an impartial justice system to which all residents can turn (including the Kadan family); it is opposed to capital punishment; women are not accosted or arrested for walking down the street without some man being their minder; artists are free to offend; all people of any religion are free to worship without restraint. All of these aspects are part of a western democracy. The fact that Israel is not a mirror image of American democracy does not mean it isn’t one.

            So, George Washington never blew up the King David Hotel or kill the UN negotiator? Kind of difficult to have done that, being that the King David and the UN didn’t exist at the time. I cannot defend the assassination of the UN negotiator. I can tell you that the King David was British military headquarters and thus was a military target. I can tell you that the British authorities were warned that the hotel would be bombed and were advised to evacuate, but they did not. And I can also tell you that if you want to list terror attacks and atrocities, I can give you a list a mile long stretching back to before the State of Israel existed, so you might not want to go down that road. From the massacre of yeshiva students in Hebron in 1929 (where Jews had lived for over 3000 years), to the murder of 70+ doctors, nurses and professors in the medical convoy heading to Mt. Scopus in Jerusalem in 1947 ro 1948, to the massacre at the school in Ma’alot, to Munich, to the bombing of BenYehuda Street in 1947, the bombing of the Hebrew University campus 10 years ago, to numerous bus bombings, and on and on. The Israelis cannot hold a candle to what has been done to them.

            I’m glad we at least agree on Yasir Arafat, but there will eventually be a Palestinian State. And there are not a 1/2 million Jewish settlements on the West Bank. Check your figures. Furthermore, when it finally comes to pass that a Palestinian state is created, the Israelis will remove the settlers, just as they did from Gaza (lovely outcome that proved to be, huh?). There will be some land swaps as well. But I can tell you one other thing that will happen. Unlike the Israelis, who have a million Arab citizens working, voting, paying taxes, etc., the Palestinians will make sure there isn’t one single Jew in the new state of Palestine. That, sir, is racism. And yes, the Israelis are urging countries not to recognize a Palestinian state that is unilaterally declared, but to continue to try to negotiate the creation of that state within recognized international borders.

            As to the numbers of dead children on either side, I do not know if your figures are correct or not. But I now begin to see your logic – the side that kills more (Israel, according to your figures) is automatically the bad guy. It apparently makes no difference to you if those children were deliberately put into harm’s way as human shields, if they are killed accidentally in response to rockets fired into Israel or in incursions in response to bus bombings. It doesn’t even matter if the children killed on the side that has lost less children were deliberately targeted. It only matters who killed more. Got it. Israel does do targeted killings, of known terrorists. It does not target children.

            I still don’t know anything about the First Baptist Church in Jerusalem. However, you will have to forgive me if I don’t take your word for it, seeing as how you are mistaken about so many things concerning life in Israel.

            And yes, I know exactly what the ILA is. I’m hardly ignorant about Israel. You, however, are hugely mistaken about it.

            You can respond to this as you see fit. I am not going to respond to you any further. You are so certain that Israel is a horrifying racist state, apparently worse than just about any other state on the globe, that nothing I say, no facts I raise, will set you to thinking about your statements and the possibility that you just might be wrong. It is a waste of my good time to debate this any further since you are so determined to hold on to your beliefs that you will never even go there. If you had that attitude towards other countries, if you held other countries up to the same standard to which you hold Israel, and criticized them as harshly and never went there to see the truth, you would never leave the borders of the US. That makes for a rather small world view. I wish you some enlightenment going forward. You won’t be hearing from me again.

          • Anonymous

            > You would not have to go through a waiting period if
            > you were Jewish, that is correct. Sorry if you find that
            > offensive, but if there had been a country with that
            > policy in 1939, there were be 6 million more of us
            > than there are now.

            If the next Hitler arises, a single bomb will wipe out 6 million “of you” instantly.

            Ironically Israel follows the Keynesian economic model, which will fail in less than 1 decade. The United States will go bankrupt within this decade and Israel will go with it. The US will then enter a period of fascism and the average American will experience absolute poverty. This will take the Middle East down with it as well, because oil revenue will no longer fuel their economies, and all you’ll have is 1 billion angry people with nothing to lose who were living under dictatorships that the US funded, and Israel supported, for 60 years.

            Mises was correct, and when Israel implodes economicall, they’ll have an impossible time maintaining their military Keynesianism.

            If you think the US has done Israel any favors with their support, you’re soon going to find out that the only thing the US has done is assure Israel’s destruction. Israel had multiple chances to make peace with the surrounding area, all they have done is attacked them, and refused to integrate their indigenous population and deny any possibility of a just settlement. The Palestinian are going to demand Israeli citizenship within 10 years.

          • Anonymous

            You wouldn’t need to go to Nazi Germany or South Africa or 1950′s USA to find out reality if you understood it. The difference is that you don’t understand reality in Israel. You WOULD NOT be excluded from citizenship based upon who your parents are, you would have to go through a waiting period just like if you were British or Argentinian and wanted to be a US citizen. Sorry if you are offended by the one place in the world that would offer something preferential to Jews, but given history and how many times Jews have been given the total complete opposite of even normal treatment, I don’t have a problem with that. As for the intermarriage question, a) it has happened, and can happen, by people going to Cypress or anywhere else have having a civil service, because the rabbinate controls issues of marriage for Jews; b) would you visit Arab countries? As I have written in other replies to you, and which you have steadfastly refused to even acknowledge, in most of the surrounding countries, life is far more restrictive. Not only can a Muslim not marry a non-Muslim, but a Jew or a Christian cannot even have a house of worship. Conversion from Islam to another religion is punishable by death (as is being gay). Non-Muslim minorities are routinely harassed. In some places they are confined to the equivalent of ghettos, in some places their churches are routinely desecrated or destroyed (not to mention the worshipers being murdered) with state sanction. But it appears that Israel alone receives your condemnation and hatred in that arena. And c) lest you get all excited about the rabbinate controlling issues of marriage in Israel, the Muslim religious authorities control that area of life in Muslim countries as well, so if you will condemn Israel for it, then you must condemn the Muslim countries for it as well. And just because Israel or the Arab countries have personal status issues controlled by religious authorities does not make it inherently wrong – it is merely different that in the US. It is how those issues are controlled that is important. I can assure you, nobody dies in Israel for marrying outside their ethnic group (unless you count honor killings, but that is occasionally done by your champions the Palestinians, to their own women, not by Israelis), nobody dies for converting, nobody dies for being gay. While we’re at it, nobody riots over cartoons and kills others for that, either.

            As for having prime ministers who were terrorists, I’m afraid that the Brits considered George Washington a terrorist as well. And if Yasir Arafat had lived long enough to become the president of the state of Palestine (or if Marwan Barghouti becomes the president in the future), then the Palestinians would also have had a president who was a terrorist. I won’t even go into the distinction between one who targets military targets as opposed to pizza parlors and civilian buses, because we already know you have a double standard. I have positively no clue as to what you are talking about regarding the First Baptist Church in Jerusalem, so I would be curious as to what you refer, but I do know about the Coptic church in Egypt which was fire-bombed a few months ago. But, again, I guess that’s okay with you, since there is no chance it was Jews perpetrating that violence. Muslim on Muslim violence (as in Shi’a vs. Sunni), or Muslim on non-Muslim violence apparently doesn’t rate any comment or comparison from you.

            And this thing about 93% of towns being controlled by a single ethnic group? You must not travel much. What majority of towns in Spain are controlled by Spaniards? In France by the French, in China by the Chinese, in Japan by the Japanese? As for the West Bank, some of the land was appropriated, yes. Some of the land was purchased from the indigenous people as well. Let’s not even talk about Jordan starting the war on that front and losing, which is how the Israelis came to control it anyway. But you live in the Bay Area, in the US. How much of the land that comprises our country was “stolen” from the indigenous peoples? Does that make it right? No, not from today’s politically correct perspective (never mind that has been the way of the world from Day One). But you live in a country where the white European newcomers had NO claim of any kind, no prior or continuing presence and no history before they showed up on the shores a few hundred years ago. You live in a glass house, richardwicks, so you might not want to throw stones so fast.

  • Anonymous

    Israel has been taken over by religious fanatics that more than match the jihadists. We have Former Chief Rabbi Yosef, Leader of the Shaa Party in the government claiming that non-Jews were created like donkeys to serve the Jews. The government was silent on his views of a Jewish “master race”. We have the popular book “Torat Hamelech”, written by two Rabbis, and supported by many more which is a justifiction for Jews to kill non-Jews and even their babies pre-emptively since non-Jews are born “uncompassionate”. Other Rabbis call for the annihilation of all Arabs, using Palestinian children as “human shields” and the settlers teach their children that non-Jews are sub-human. It appears that the “chosen people” mantra is morphing into something quite different and something quite frightening since the Shaa’s and settlers are acting these views out with violence. I hate religious extremism of all types and fear that unless Israel can rein in the its fanatics it will further be delegitimized and isolated. The world is noticing the increasing fanaticism. I pity the Palestinians living under religious based racism of this level.

    • Anonymous

      This is an odd inversion of moral judgment. Do you really, honestly believe that Israel’s religious fanatics “more than match the jihadists?” You must not be familiar with Jihadists. How many Jews have carried out acts of religious terror? You can name them on one hand. How many jihadists have committed acts of terror? Thousands. The rabbis you mention carry little influence as far as inciting violence, as their words have not resulted in much religious violence if any (no murders have ever been linked or attributed to Ovadiah Yosef). It is libelous and unethical to claim equivalence (or worse) between Jihadists and israeli religious fanatics. I mean, the evidence just doesn’t support you.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=747627253 Amanda Hoffman

        What does it take to match a jihadist? Maybe violent right wing israeli’s aren’t looking to push Palestinians off the face of the earth, but they are pushing them off of their land in order to maintain the illusion that Israel is god given to the Jews. Guess what – there were flesh and blood people living in Palestine. It’s funny how much the IDF and their settler-leaders can interact with the flesh and blood of Palestinians and not get that.

      • Anonymous

        This I do since much of it is state-sponsored terrorism. Whether it is invasions of Lebanon, Gaza, Israel’s history of massacres, Kahane, Goldstein’s massacre, the bombing of the “Liberty”, assassinations by Mossad, etc., etc., How many has this killed – Thosands and thosands. The silence of the government on Rabbi Yosef’s comments were quite telling. Agreement perhaps! Israel talks so much about “incitement” by the Palestinians yet a powerful member of the Knesset makes these comments and no one in the government disagrees. Yosef’s Hitleresque view of a Jewish “master race is shared by the Shaas and settlers and they have killed Palestinians, burned mosques, fire bombed houses etc. The government doesn’t try to stop them and no one is ever convicted of these crimes. The IDF stands by in many cases and watches without intervening. I guess it doesn’t bother you to see this religious, racist, fanaticism growing. Mark my words, unless Israel begins to rein it in Israel is doomed. It will not be an alleged democracy and with these views it will be the pariah of the world. If Israelis’ think that their views of non-Jews are not being noticed, think again. The world will not support a country that is increasingly teaching that they are a “master race” and all others are sub-human. What sort of anti- is it when it covers the 98% of they world that isn’t Jewish. I have Jewish friends who are deeply concerned about this and are cutting back on their support for Israel but it is going to take more than that for the present government to change direction. I fear with Israel’s nucleur capibility, if backed in a corner, Israel could make the ultimate “price tag” attack on the world.

        • Anonymous

          I cannot believe how one-sided your comments are. You state that “the world will not support a country that is increasingly teaching that they are a “master race”. First of all, that is NOT what Israelis are taught, that is antithetical to Jewish tradition, and in a country with free speech (which doesn’t exist over Israel’s borders, I remind you), the government cannot muzzle everybody with a wacky or sick opinion. Second, it appears that the world WILL support a country that teaches that it is a “master race” – have you heard what the Arab press says about Jews and, on a lesser level, Christians (Jews being the first target)? It seems that it’s fine for imams to regularly speak of Jews as pigs and dogs, and nobody bats an eye, but heaven forbid an Israeli (mainstream or not) utters something equally as low, and you get your undies in a knot. Talk about a double standard!

          As to the “invasions” of Lebanon and Gaza, they came after years of shelling of civilians, and Israel has as much responsibility for defending its citizens as does any other country. If a group of guys in Tijuana began lobbing shells at San Diego, do you think the US would wait years to stop it? Of course not – only Israel apparently doesn’t have the right to self defense. And don’t go whining about “the blockade”. If the blockade were so successful, Israel wouldn’t be sending in tons of humanitarian aid each week (yeah, that never gets mentioned, does it?). Furthermore, if the blockade was such a success, then Hamas wouldn’t have any rockets to fire at Israel.

          I’m curious as to the “history of massacres”, since the Arabs would bury the Israelis in that category. Goldstein’s massacre was horrifying, and was immediately condemned by the Israeli government and public. When the Palestinians conduct a successful massacre, there is dancing in the streets. I bet you didn’t see the films of those same poor, downtrodden people dancing in the streets on 9/11 either, did you? You really should do a bit more reading of history before holding Israel up to a standard which nobody else is expected to come near to reaching.

      • Anonymous

        This I do since much of it is state-sponsored terrorism. Whether it is invasions of Lebanon, Gaza, Israel’s history of massacres, Kahane, Goldstein’s massacre, the bombing of the “Liberty”, assassinations by Mossad, etc., etc., How many has this killed – Thosands and thosands. The silence of the government on Rabbi Yosef’s comments were quite telling. Agreement perhaps! Israel talks so much about “incitement” by the Palestinians yet a powerful member of the Knesset makes these comments and no one in the government disagrees. Yosef’s Hitleresque view of a Jewish “master race is shared by the Shaas and settlers and they have killed Palestinians, burned mosques, fire bombed houses etc. The government doesn’t try to stop them and no one is ever convicted of these crimes. The IDF stands by in many cases and watches without intervening. I guess it doesn’t bother you to see this religious, racist, fanaticism growing. Mark my words, unless Israel begins to rein it in Israel is doomed. It will not be an alleged democracy and with these views it will be the pariah of the world. If Israelis’ think that their views of non-Jews are not being noticed, think again. The world will not support a country that is increasingly teaching that they are a “master race” and all others are sub-human. What sort of anti- is it when it covers the 98% of they world that isn’t Jewish. I have Jewish friends who are deeply concerned about this and are cutting back on their support for Israel but it is going to take more than that for the present government to change direction. I fear with Israel’s nucleur capibility, if backed in a corner, Israel could make the ultimate “price tag” attack on the world.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Kwende-Idrissa-Madu/1093618153 Kwende Idrissa Madu

    It is not apartheid to you because you, If my guess is correct, are not an are not an Israeli- born Arab subjected to second-class citizenship. Now I suppose you will counter with a speech about how all Israeli citizens have equal rights in the fascist monstrosity you so vigorously defend but then you will never be harassed by the IDF or killed by settlers for being an Arab.