Roots 2.0: Using DNA to Trace My Ancestry

The World’s Carol Zall recounts her own experience of using genetic testing to find out more about her family tree.

Have you had your DNA tested? What did you find out? Add your story in the comments below.


I've been "digging for my roots" since I was a kid

I've been "digging for my roots" since I was a kid

In any family, there is always one person who is interested in genealogy – and in my family, I’ve always been that person.

I’m not sure what got me interested in my family’s past. Maybe it was the 1977 blockbuster TV series “Roots,” which chronicled Alex Haley’s search for his African forebears. I was ten years old at the time and can still remember bits of it – especially Haley’s iconic exclamation, “Kunta Kinte, I have found you!” when he finally tracks down vital information about his ancestor, Kunta Kinte.

Whatever prompted my interest in genealogy, by the time I was eleven I was ardently filling in the pages of “Digging for My Roots,” a book for kids that encouraged me to interview my relatives and record as much information from them as I could gather. So, armed with my blue Panasonic tape recorder, I conducted my very first interview – with my grandmother, Ray Zall, who graciously answered all of my detailed questions about her childhood in Belarus.

“Tell Me About Your Life”

The recording of my grandmother, which I still have, begins rather grandly: “This is Carol Zall interviewing Ray Zall, my grandmother, or ‘Bobe’ in Yiddish.” It was the first of several recordings I have made with relatives – and it’s both poignant and amusing.

My late grandmother, Ray Zall, with my late father, Milton Zall

My late grandmother, Ray Zall, with my late father, Milton Zall

“Now, Mrs. Zall,” I begin in my best radio interviewer manner, “could you tell us about your childhood?”
“What can I tell you?” my grandmother asks in her heavily accented English.
“Tell me about your life. Where were you born?”
“I was born in a small place, the name was called Kashuki.”
“What?”
“Kashuki. Kashuki, it’s a country, a small place.”
“What country was it near?”
“That was Russian-Poland, Russian-Poland.”

As you can tell from this exchange, the location of my grandmother’s village was confusing to me in 1978, and it’s still confusing now. She was born at the beginning of the twentieth century in what is now Belarus, but was then Poland – or, as she put it, “Russian-Poland” – and I’ve never been able to find her village, Kashuki, on a map. (If anyone can help me with that, please let me know UPDATE: After hearing from many listeners, I now think I know where Kashuki is located. Thanks for your help!). Many of my other ancestors came from similarly vague places, located in countries that no longer exist, like Austria-Hungary. I don’t even know the names of the villages they came from, and that’s made it hard to trace my roots.


Hear more of my 1978 interview with my grandmother here:

A New Way To Trace My Family Tree


Thirty-four years after that recording was made, there are now new ways to trace my family tree. Advances in the field of genomics have made it possible to use a person’s DNA to find out where their ancestors may have come from. Recently, this kind of analysis has become available – and more importantly, affordable – to the general public, and I’ve wanted to try it ever since I heard about it.
Joanna Mountain, Senior Director of Research at 23andMe

Joanna Mountain, Senior Director of Research at 23andMe


For about two hundred dollars, I signed up with a company called 23andMe (the name derives from the fact that we all have 23 pairs of chromosomes) – and the next thing I knew, I was spitting into a plastic tube and mailing my saliva to them.

Joanna Mountain, senior director of Research at 23andMe, explained the testing process once the saliva samples arrive at their partner lab. The first step, she says, “is to extract the DNA from the saliva. And then they take that DNA and it gets cut up into little pieces and they put the DNA onto what we call a chip, or a genotyping array.”

Three Billion Letters


Human DNA is like a code, made up of three billion letters. 23andMe doesn’t look at all of those letters, or “positions,” as they’re called; they just look at about a million of them. Looking at that subset is what is called “genotyping”.

According to Mountain, the genotyping chip, or array, has lots of little strings of DNA on it. 23andMe looks to see which of the strands of DNA on the chip match the strands of the DNA of the customer, and that tells them which variants the customer has at various positions on their genome.

“Those positions are chosen because they are particularly interesting,” says Mountain, “because they vary from one person to another.”

It’s those interesting positions that testing companies like 23andMe are using to find out all kinds of information – everything from diseases you could be at risk for in the future, to details about your past.

How It Works


Although the medical side of DNA testing is fascinating – and is going to change the way medicine is practiced – I was most interested in what DNA testing could tell me about my past. Testing companies like 23andMe have a few different kinds of genetic information they can look at in order to learn about a person’s ancestry. First, there’s the Y chromosome. It’s something only men have, and since a man has only one Y chromosome, it gets passed down from father to son without changing or combining with any other genetic material.

A book called "Digging For My Roots" encouraged me to get into genealogy.

A book called “Digging For My Roots” encouraged me to get into genealogy.

Bennett Greenspan is the President of Family Tree DNA, another company that offers a genotyping service direct to the public. He told me that by looking at the Y chromosome, we can get a perfect picture of a person’s “father’s father’s father’s father’s line, just by testing one male from that particular lineage.”

“We can tell an individual that their father’s father’s father’s direct male line is native American or sub-Saharan African,” says Greenspan, “even if they think of themselves after looking in the mirror, as a Caucasian individual.”

That kind of surprising discovery is possible because the male ancestor revealed by a man’s Y chromosome is only one of the many ancestors whose genes he carries. So a person could have mostly European DNA, and look European, even if his Y chromosome traced back to an African forebear.

Just as with the paternal line, it’s possible to trace the maternal line, by looking at a certain kind of DNA called mitochondrial DNA. Mitochondrial DNA is a special piece of DNA that’s passed down from mother to child, so it’s used to trace the maternal line back to a common female ancestor.

In addition to the X and Y chromosomes and a person’s mitochondrial DNA, there’s also the DNA from the other 22 pairs of chromosomes. This DNA represents genes from all the other ancestors you’ve ever had, not just your direct paternal and maternal lines, and is called “autosomal DNA”.

New Ways to Find Cousins


Autosomal DNA recombines in every generation – and it’s this “re-shuffled” autosomal DNA that companies like Family Tree DNA and 23andMe are using to try to squeeze out as much ancestry information as possible. While the testing companies don’t provide the kind of information you’d get from traditional genealogical research, they do have searchable databases that allow customers to look for and contact people who share identical gene segments – potential genetic cousins who may be able to pool records and other information about known common ancestors.

“Of course this is of great interest to genealogists,” says Blaine Bettinger, editor of the Journal of Genetic Genealogy. “We’re always looking for new ways to identify cousins.”

Bettinger, who is a practicing attorney and also has a Ph.D. in molecular biology, says that his own DNA results helped him to fill in the blanks on his family tree.

“I have, on my maternal line, a brick wall that goes back to about 1820s in the Honduras,” he explains. “And I have previously been completely unable to explore that line at all, due to the lack of records and access to records.” Despite the lack of records, Bettinger was able to find a new lead – from his DNA analysis. It showed that his mitochondrial DNA (his mother’s line) traced back to the Native American population.

“So although I didn’t obtain any names, or dates, or anything along those lines, I was able to peek beyond this brick wall that I have.”

Bettinger also got useful information from his autosomal DNA, which showed that he had both native American and African DNA – something he didn’t expect from his paper trail alone.

Read Blaine’s blog about genetic genealogy and hear more from him on DNA testing below:

A Boring Genome


While Blaine Bettinger made the kind of discoveries that motivate people to get their DNA analyzed in the first place, not everyone gets such interesting results.

“I discovered that I had just about the most boring genome that a person can have,” says Daniel MacArthur, a research geneticist at Massachusetts General Hospital. “I discovered that I’m of European origin, which is something I already knew. I discovered that I have blue eyes, which is also true. And I haven’t really found anything that really blew me away.”

Daniel MacArthur says his genome is "boring"

Daniel MacArthur says his genome is "boring"

Despite his boring genome, MacArthur is a big advocate of direct-to-consumer genetic testing services (you can read his blog post about how to choose a reputable genetic testing service). He’s one of about a dozen people – all scientists or experts in genomics – who’ve made their genetic data available to the public, on a website called Genomes Unzipped.

The folks at Genomes Unzipped blog about the different genomic testing services, and about the scientific, legal and ethical issues surrounding genetic testing. One of the people there, Joe Pickrell, a postdoctoral researcher in human population genetics at Harvard Medical School, did get a surprise when he put his information online.

A Not-So-Boring Genome

“I didn’t know a whole lot about my ancestry, but I knew vague details,” says Pickrell. “And so what happened is, actually the first day we put this data online, there’s a guy who runs a website where he does ancestry analysis. And so he took all of our data and put it through his software.”

Pickrell had always thought his ancestors came from Ireland, Italy and the UK. But now, there was something new in the mix: “It turned out in his analysis that I had some Jewish ancestry.”

Joe Pickrell wasn't looking for surprises

Joe Pickrell wasn't looking for surprises

Pickrell was skeptical. “I had never heard anything about Jewish ancestry in my family and had no idea that that was even a possibility.” However, he started running his own analyses – and the closer he looked, the more it seemed he did have Jewish roots. So he asked his family what they knew, and it turned out that the DNA analysis was right: Pickrell had a great grandfather who was Jewish. The great-grandfather had immigrated to the U.S. from Poland and married a Catholic woman. Worried about discrimation, Pickrell’s great grandparents had decided to keep the Jewish ancestry secret. “They just said that he was Irish,” says Pickrell with a laugh.

Joe’s experience with genetic testing was a dramatic one (for more on his story, see his post at Genomes Unzipped) – and it was just about the opposite of my own. While he was surprised to find Jewish ancestry, I’ve always known that my family was Jewish. My entire family tree – as far as I know – consists of European Jews, also known as Ashkenazi Jews. So, I’ve always imagined my ancestors as people who spoke Yiddish, lived in Eastern Europe and listened to Klezmer music.

A Very Ashkenazi Genome


However, since Ashkenazi Jews spent centuries wandering around Europe, living among different populations, I’ve always wondered who else was in my family tree. After all, my mother’s mother and all her siblings had red hair and blue eyes, and my own sister – a redhead with freckles – is always asked whether she’s Irish. So could I possibly have Celtic forebears? As someone who went to Scotland for a year to study Celtic literature and stayed for over a decade, I have to say that I would be both astounded and delighted to find that the red hair in our family traces back to the Celts. It would be equally intriguing to find out that I had genes from some other European population.
My sister: Everyone thinks she's Irish

My sister: Everyone thinks she's Irish

In theory, I could have such ancestry – but what actually showed up in my DNA analysis was a very Ashkenazi-Jewish looking genome. Joanna Mountain of 23andMe went over my results with me. According to her, about two thirds of my genome “traced back to Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry either in Russia, Poland, Belarus,” and other nearby countries.

The results confirmed the stories I’d heard from my relatives, showing DNA that traces to the eastern and central European countries my ancestors reportedly came from. Joanna Mountain showed me one feature on the 23andMe website that makes my Ashkenazi ancestry especially apparent. My 23 chromosomes are displayed as separate bars – and each one of them is covered with bright blue sections, representing all the gene segments I share with other people in their database whose ancestors were also Ashkenazi Jews. Looking at that chart, Joanna Mountain said to me, “This is where your Jewish ancestry really pops out.”

“This is where your Jewish ancestry really pops out.” ©23andMe, Inc. 2012. All rights reserved. Distributed pursuant to a limited license from 23andMe."

“This is where your Jewish ancestry really pops out.” ©23andMe, Inc. 2012. All rights reserved. Distributed pursuant to a limited license from 23andMe."


Mountain also explained to me that this is how testing companies determine ancestry: they compare your genes to known reference populations to see which ones they resemble most. The closer you are to the reference data, the more likely it is that you have that same ancestry.

In addition to 23andMe’s analysis, I ran my data through other publicly available programs (for example, the Interpretome site and Euro-DNA-Calc) and they all gave me the same result: my genes are extremely similar to the genes of other Ashkenazis.

That’s not to say that I had no overlap whatsoever with other groups: my DNA did bear some resemblance, for instance, to the genes of Moroccan Jews, Italians, North Africans and Tunisians. But that overlap was trivial compared to the number of identical gene segments I shared with Ashkenazis.

A Complicated History


Despite the large proportion of segments I shared with other Ashkenazis, I was still curious about the other groups that had contributed to my DNA… but that’s where the story gets complicated. This is because the history of Jews in Europe is a convoluted one, and lots of the details are sketchy – which makes it hard to study Ashkenazi genes.

There are different hypotheses about how Ashkenazi Jews came to Europe and how they mixed with local populations. Bennett Greenspan of Family Tree DNA explains one possibility: “When the Romans expelled the Judeans approximately 2,000 years ago,” he says, “they deported mostly the trouble makers, which meant that they probably deported more men than women, and yet when those Judean slaves were looking for wives in Italy, they reached out into the local Italian non-Jewish population and converted women, and married those women and the rest was history.”

My late maternal grandparents, Florence and Isidore Langert: What populations contributed to my family's genes?

My late maternal grandparents, Florence and Isidore Langert: What populations contributed to my family's genes?


After that initial injection of Italian DNA, some think the Ashkenazi population may not have mixed much with other groups in Europe. But David Goldstein, who directs the Center for Human Genome Variation at Duke University, says there’s another possibility. “I think what’s happened is, there’s always been some little degree, at least, of interchange between Ashkenazi populations and all these different peoples that they have lived amongst. And so it is an incredibly complicated history of input from all sorts of different populations, and we’re not going to unravel that.”

What that means is that while it’s true that as a group, Ashkenazis clearly have a European contribution to their DNA, right now that’s as far as the science will take me when it comes to my own family history. So two hundred dollars and a vial of spit later, the big headline is something I already knew: that my ancestors were mostly Jews from different parts of Eastern Europe. In other words, I’m exactly who I always thought I was.

I have to admit that I was a little disappointed that the testing didn’t tell me anything more specific. Don’t get me wrong: it’s amazing that a scientist can look at my DNA and see that I have ancestors from Belarus or Russia, just like my grandparents told me. But just think how cool it would have been to have found something completely unexpected in my results, like being Norwegian, or Native American…or even Scottish. Maybe I just wanted a surprise – or at the very least, more answers to some of my questions.

The Mitochondrial Connection


I did get one hazy glimpse into my past, via my mitochondrial DNA – that’s the special piece of DNA that’s handed down from mother to child. Mitochondrial DNA is separate from your 23 chromosomes, and it’s useful because it has mutations that can be traced to a common ancestor. It’s divided into subgroups called haplogroups, and each haplogroup traces back along the maternal line to the female ancestor in whom the identifying mutation of that haplogroup first appeared. In my case, my haplogroup – H3 – traces back to a common female ancestor in Southwestern Europe (Iberia) about fifteen thousand years ago.

Today, H3 is one of the most common haplogroups in Western Europe. However, it’s not very common among Ashkenazi Jews – which raises the question of how it got into my maternal line in the first place. Family Tree DNA’s Bennett Greenspan says we can speculate about the female ancestor I got it from:

My great-great-grandparents came from "somewhere" in Austria-Hungary

My great-great-grandparents came from "somewhere" in Austria-Hungary


“My guess is that if we went back far enough on your mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s direct female line, that we would probably find that she was a non-Jewish woman who married a Jewish immigrant or deportee into Europe sometime over the last few thousand years.”

Taking that speculation one step further, 23andMe’s Joanna Mountain says that since one branch of the H3 population spread along the Mediterranean and across the Alps into what is now Hungary, where I know some of my ancestors once lived, that’s probably the H3 line that my mitochondrial DNA comes from.

“And then your Jewish ancestors arrived in Hungary,” says Mountain, “and the simplest story we can draw is that one of those Jewish ancestors married a woman from Hungary or nearby, but the children remained within the Ashkenazi Jewish community.”

Not Much the Wiser… Yet

Of course, I don’t really know if my H3 mitochondrial DNA came from a woman who lived in Hungary in the recent past, or whether it came from a female ancestor who lived somewhere else, a very long time ago perhaps. But given the red hair in my family and the history of Jews in Europe, it’s not at all surprising to have some DNA from an ancestor who probably wasn’t Jewish. Still, I’m not much the wiser about my family history than I was when I started all this. That could change soon, however. Sometime in the next decade, the cost of having your whole genome sequenced – all three billion letters of the code – will become affordable. When that happens, says Harvard’s Joe Pickrell, that’s going to change everything all over again.

“What you’d be able to do is look at an individual’s genome and say, all right, they have this mutation, which arose in a particular village in the south of France, for example, and then you’d be able to say with nearly a hundred percent certainty that you have some ancestor who came from that particular village.”

Geneticist Daniel MacArthur agrees. “With whole genome sequencing we’ll be able to look at the variants found only in one very small area of Europe,” MacArthur says. “So if they had a large enough collection of reference individuals and your entire genome sequence, we can pin down your location pretty precisely I think – particularly if all of your ancestors come from one region.”

The Caveman Connection


So now I guess I’m waiting for the day when I can afford to have my entire genome sequenced. But in the meantime, the most exciting thing I’ve learned about my ancestry may be something that goes back a lot further than any European village. In fact, it goes all the way back to the Stone Age.

Recent studies suggest that humans may have interbred with Neanderthals tens of thousands of years ago. And not long ago, the 23andMe website added a feature that lets you see what percentage – if any – of your DNA comes from Neanderthals. So I navigated to the relevant webpage, clicked on the link and got my result: according to 23andMe, 2.7% of my DNA is Neanderthal. And while that’s not unexpected – almost all people of non-African descent do have a little bit of Neanderthal DNA in them – I find it strangely compelling to think that somewhere up the line, many thousands of years before the red hair and the mitochondrial DNA were part of the story, before the dawn of recorded time or the existence of words like “Europe” or “Ashkenazi,” I was a twinkle in a Neanderthal’s eye.


Carol ZallCarol Zall is a former producer for The World


Discussion

53 comments for “Roots 2.0: Using DNA to Trace My Ancestry”

  • CovertOps

    Fascinating subject matter and great reporting!  Thanks for the info.  Too bad 23andMe didn’t take the opportunity to offer a special deal to listeners.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/E7UXRNQ7C4XE2OE7W5E6673PCQ andrea

    A few years ago I had my brother and myself tested to trace our ancestry.  Both of my parents are geneologists and traced our family line back to an escaped slave.  They of course were unable to follow the trail further back from there.  This made me wonder what part of Africa we came from.  My brothers DNA was traced back to a gene pool in Western Africa.  My DNA was traced back to the Eve-gene which has its origins in the Great Rift Valley.  Reading this caused me to burst in tears.  I served in the Peace Corps in Malawi which is in the southern part of the Great Rift Valley.  Lake Malawi was carved out of the ground by the receding ice.  While I lived there I would tell my students that I could be Malawian.  This would make them laugh and giggle because they did not see me as African but as American.  Reading this confirmed what I had always felt and deepened my connection to my former students.
    Andrea  

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Animesh-Ray/693539233 Animesh Ray

    Excellent reporting! I also got my ancestry analyzed, and here are two of my blogs on this topic:

    My DNA–My Ancestry:  http://doctorbabaguy-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/2011/07/my-dna.html

    My DNA–The Rashomon Factor:  http://doctorbabaguy-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/2011/07/my-dna-rashomon-factor.html

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_OKHQJLPLISB27V2SSMGH2TQOAI R

    Buyer beware. I got my first DNA test from a company specializing in autosomal testing and the results were astounding: a hodgepodge of European, Ashkenazi Jewish, Amerindian, and Sub Saharan African markers including a mixed-race American group called “Melungeons”. Considering that my family tree is well-documented and points back entirely to Western Europe, I was surprised to say the least. Further research showed  that this company specializes in surprising people with their test results—the owner himself has claimed Amerindian and Jewish ancestry (in spite of an absence of genealogical evidence) and identifies himself as an expert on the Melungeouns.  He’s also not a trained scientist. Follow-up tests on Y-DNA and mitochondrial lines from a different company gave me very different results—my ancestors are entirely Western European, just like my family tree shows. It may be true that DNA doesn’t lie, but DNA tests results can certainly be misinterpreted.

    • CarolZall

      Check out Daniel MacArthur’s guide to choosing a genetic testing company – very informative. 
      http://www.theworld.org/2012/03/ready-to-test-your-dna-how-to-choose-a-genetic-testing-company/

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/7RDCVEWYBKM3DDUCYYKGQGC3EM Anthony

      Consultants with Dr.Panther?

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_OKHQJLPLISB27V2SSMGH2TQOAI R

        Well, I won’t name any names, but this particular principal investigator has a bunch of humanities degrees and is using DNA testing to push some unorthodox revisions of American ethnic history. My results seem to fit rather neatly into the context of his research interests.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/7RDCVEWYBKM3DDUCYYKGQGC3EM Anthony

      you said you had Y-dna and mitochondrial dna tested from another company but did you get autosomal ethnic testing from another company also?

      • CarolZall

        Hi Anthony – The company I used – 23andMe – gives customers results about Y DNA, mitochondrial DNA and autosomal DNA. That’s all included in their package. Other companies break it up differently and charge you different amounts depending on what you go for – so for some of those places, you could pay for Y-DNA only, mitochondrial DNA only, or for some package that includes both or some other combination.
        If you haven’t seen it, we have an interesting blog post from geneticist Daniel MacArthur about how to choose a testing company, and another one from Blaine Bettinger with more detail on how people use their results to research genealogy (see links to those blogs just above this ‘comments’ section).
        Are you thinking of getting tested?
        For what it’s worth, I had a good experience with 23andMe – and all the geneticists I know seem to have used them. A lot of people have tried Family Tree DNA too. There’s a lot more on the really good website Genomes Unzipped, too – there’s a link to them above, too.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_OKHQJLPLISB27V2SSMGH2TQOAI R

        No, I didn’t repeat the autosomal test–I feel satisfied that the most recent results are accurate.

  • http://twitter.com/palmd PalMD

    My grandmother is also from “russia poland”, specifically a shtetl called “skitl” near Grodno in Belarus.  Many of these towns were completely destroyed but can be found in various holocaust databases.  A brief search turned up a couple (unlikely) possibilities: 
    http://data.jewishgen.org/wconnect/wc.dll?jg~jgsys~jgcd

    • CarolZall

      Thanks for the information. I’ve been hoping that someone might hear the radio story and KNOW where ‘Kashuki’ is….. It was not far from Baranovich, so I know the general vicinity. Still, I can’t seem to find it on a map, despite the fact that I know that Baranovich was the nearest town. Did you manage to find Skitl?

    • CarolZall

      Thanks for the information. I’ve been hoping that someone might hear the radio story and KNOW where ‘Kashuki’ is….. It was not far from Baranovich, so I know the general vicinity. Still, I can’t seem to find it on a map, despite the fact that I know that Baranovich was the nearest town. Did you manage to find Skitl?

      • http://twitter.com/teachpsychology Sally Walters

        You might find something on the belarus SIG
        http://www.jewishgen.org/Belarus/resources.htm#Maps 

      • RobertaBooks

         Many Jewish villages had names that were different from those that you can find on maps.  Vilna is a fabled Jewish center, but on a map you will find it listed as Vilnius.  Jewish names did not change over the years even when the local government and the town’s name changed.  A friend of mine knew a family in which the father was born in one country, the mother in another, and the child in a third, but they were each born blocks away from each other in the same town.  My father was born in Pschaitch in Poland, but it was on no map.  I asked several Poles, and none of them recognized it.  Then, one summer, I mentioned the town to a person at YIVO, an expert on locations of Jewish towns.  He recognized it immediately and told me the Polish name for the town, Przedecz.  Go figure.  If JewishGen doesn’t help and you still want to find Kashuki, e-mail me and I’ll give you the person’s name.  He may be able to help you.  For that matter, YIVO’s archives are pretty extensive.  Might be something there that would interest you.   

        • CarolZall

          Thanks, Roberta. I actually seem to remember a relative telling me that Kashuki was not a Jewish village – it was a very small place, and my grandmother’s family may have been the only Jewish family there. So there’s a chance that the village wasn’t destroyed, as were so many Jewish ones. The YIVO idea is a great one. I will figure out how to find your email address (I will need to ask our web editor)  and send you a note for that person’s name. Thanks!

          • RobertaBooks

             A very small place probably means a dorf.  There were
            dorfs, shtetls and shtots.  As far as I can tell, shtetls were larger than people imagine them.  Quaint only in that roads were muddy and dusty dirt roads and travel was mostly by horse and wagon.  The shtetls I know best were (and still are) ten to twenty thousand people.  Market towns.  Groupings larger than that were shtots, cities.  Dorfs were quite small.  Some that I’ve run across had as few as nine Jewish families.  I don’t know what the size dividing line would be between a dorf and a shtetl, but the YIVO person I mentioned surely would.  Most of those places weren’t wiped out at all.  Just the record that Jews ever lived there – like the neutron bomb that kills people but keeps buildings.  Jewish communities were not isolated places where only Jews lived.  Jews always lived in heterogeneous communities, forming perhaps a third of the community.  However, they maintained their own very strong culture within another culture.  What was somewhat unique about these communities was that they never entirely assimilated; rather, they had such a strong culture of their own that they managed absorb things from the surrounding culture and make them entirely Jewish.  Thus Ukranian foods such as gefulte fish became Jewish; Haredi sects still wear the clothing of seventeenth century (?) Ukranian and Polish nobility.  The local non-Jewish population moved into Jewish houses, took the furniture and valuables, used headstones in Jewish cemeteries for construction, and so forth.  The economic activity of the place continued.  I’m sure the house that my grandfather built, personally selecting each tree, and later moved by marking, disassembling and reassembling each timber, is still standing.  It’s pretty clear that one of the incentives for “good people” to participate in the annihilation of Jewish communities is that they could take over their properties and possessions.  I’m thinking of going to my maternal grandfather’s town and was wondering if there were any way to locate the house.  Not sure.  Another source for you might be the Yizkor Book from the larger town that you mentioned.  The dorfs surrounding it are sometimes mentioned in the stories.  That’s not the easiest way to go unless the Yizkor Book has already been translated into English, but might bear fruit.  But If you were to post your e-mail or even your snail mail address somehow, that might be easier than getting your web master involved.  I’ll try to remember to look back in a week or so.     

  • baptox

     What a wonderful and humorous story that  is both enlightening and humorous. Loved the use of Klezmer music in making your points. Yes, I laughed… Well done!! 

    • CarolZall

      Thank you for listening and enjoying!

  • http://twitter.com/CraigTower Craig Tower

    Actually, that red hair may actually be FROM the long-lost Neanderthal, as fair skin, freckles, and reddish hair have been considered since 2007 to be linked to their genetic makeup.  It’s surprising that no one at 23andMe explained that after the testing…

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7062415.stm 

    • CarolZall

      Yes, good point! More evidence of my Neanderthal ancestry…. I didn’t really chat to the 23andMe people about the Neanderthal DNA – that function on their website came online after I’d gotten my results.

  • http://dissidentdispatches.blogspot.com Greggory Wood

    This story sent chills down my spine. We are so much more alike than different; brothers more than enemies.

  • RSB01

    Great story, I heard a teaser for the
    segment and had to sit in my car for 30 minutes so I could hear it.

    I also had a genetic genealogy test
    performed but by a different company. The company I used then tries to
    match your DNA up with other customers so you can find relatives through your
    DNA.

    I knew my paternal line was from Norway
    but knew very little about my grandfather and I had no idea where my maternal
    line originated.

    I had the Y-67 test performed (paternal) and
    found that I matched another person in Norway exactly at Y-67. With help from
    the person in Norway I was able to trace my paternal line back 8 generations
    and the person in Norway knew his paternal line back 13 generations. According
    to the web site, at 4 generations we had 68% chance of a common ancestor and at
    8 generations had a 99% chance of a common ancestor. When we compared our
    paternal lineages, there were no matches to 8 generations. So we had to
    conclude that either the common ancestor was further back in time (1% chance) or
    that one of our paternal ancestors was born to a father who was not the genetic
    father (i.e. There was some mischief going on!).

    The furthest I could trace my maternal
    line was to around 1815 in Indiana. An old county history book mentioned the
    family had “Irish ancestors” but I could not trace the line back any further.  The maternal DNA test indicated I had a marker
    that matched with other customers that indicated a likely origin in Ireland,
    just as the old county history book suggested.

    Loved the piece,

    Thank You

  • twistedstocker

    I listened to your report on the way home from work and I found it very interesting. Although the best part was the Jewish and Irish Music you played, hilarious. Then ending with the “I was a twinkle in a Neanderthal’s eye”, that very was funny as well. Thanks for making it entertaining as well as informative.

  • http://profiles.google.com/blair.kilpatrick Blair Kilpatrick

    Great story!  You are so right, I think, that most of us go into this hoping for a surprise.  I got a good laugh about you, with Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry, hoping to discover you have some Scottish roots.  I, on the other hand, had a Scottish father and  100 % Slovenian American mother, but I’ve been hoping to find Jewish roots :-)   Nothing in the overall genome, sad to say, for my mother or for me.  But there is one more way of confirming these hunches: looking at the distant cousin matches in the database of your testing company.  My mother does have some matches on 23andMe who say they are fully Ashkenazi.  So maybe there’s some truth to what she’s always believed.  We can always hope!

    • CarolZall

      I love your comment, and love the fact that your experience was the mirror image of mine. I think there’s something universal about feeling a connection with another culture and wondering if somewhere up the line, you could have a little DNA from that place/group. I think my experience is typical of DNA testing – i.e., most people probably find out that they are who they think they are – but I am also amazed at all the stories of people who get surprising information. There are also quite a few unanticipated or even unwelcome surprises, like finding out your parents are not your biological parents. As for your comment about the relative-finder on 23andMe, that efaure is fun to play with. On the other hand, I’ve been told by geneticists that Ashkenazi Jews are basically all related to each other at about the level of fifth cousins (mind-blowing!!!!!) – so as you can imagine, I had many pages of cousin matches at 23andMe. 

  • de_Silva

    Very Interesting and informative! .
    It propelled me to think of analyzing my own DNA. Thanks so much Carol !!!

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=568299814 Paul Baltzer

    really enjoyed the broadcast…funny and entertaining,  Thinking I was of Polish decent all my life and now finding out I was “russian polish” decent like you, I understood your story.  Have ran into a dead end with grandparents from eastern “poland” Lomza area 1903 era. 

    Been thinking about the DNA test, but was not sure if it was worth the money for the results you get back.  Any thought?

    • CarolZall

      I definitely recommend it. If you use 23andMe, they usually do a sale once or twice a year, so you could keep your eye out for that. The different testing services offer different packages and some give different types of information, so it’s useful to ‘comparison shop’ and see what you get for your money. It’s also good to choose a service that lets you get your raw data, because there are a number of publicly available programs that let you do additional analyses of your DNA on your own – for instance, the Interpretome site, started by a grad student at Stanford, and also the Euro-DNA-Calc software. I also got a lot of medical information in my results, which was truly interesting and also useful.

  • pilgrimchaser

    Carol, I loved your story.  My interest in genealogies started late in life when my half sister sent me a Civil War letter from who she thought might have been my grandfather.  My Dad had died and I realized I knew very little about his family.  I eventually discovered that it was an older brother of my grandfather who had written two Civil War letters that survived in the home of one of my great grandfather’s three wives and whose family did do genealogies.  I was not a descendant of this 2nd wife but their family also knew something of the first wife from whom I descended.
      You will be interested to know, Carol, that I found out I am SCOTTISH.  I found out that my great grandmother’s family were DUNCANS.  As they moved South in the USA, DUNCAN became DUNKIN.
      My daughter and son-in-law are scientists who are involved with DNA for medical research purposes so they presented me with a Chirstmas present.  A few years ago they got me a membership to the National Geographic Genographic Project.  My daughter rubbed the inside of my cheek with a swap and sent off for my mtDNA.  Genographic was aligned with Familty Tree DNA (FTDNA.com) and I got a free membership with them also.  They began to send me matches.  I preoceeded to get as many “matches” that approximated my Dad’s family as they did my Mom’s. I will explain why this happened later.
      I pretty much let it slide and wasn’t real consistent on follow-through until my first cousin became obsessed with finding our great-great grandparents on our father’s side of the famly.  She became the family’s genetic genealogist. 
       Because of her interest in DNA, mine was renewed and I discovered that both my mother and my father had the same mtDNA when a man I had never met contacted me and said we had an mtDNA match.  I had a paper trail from him to, NOT my mother’s ancestors, but straight up the female line from my father to one of his ancestors.  I was confused so I asked my daughter.  She said that, because our DNA has been proliferating for thousands of years it is not unusual that millions of people would have my same mtDNA.  It only meant that somewhere in the distant pass my mother and my father’s female line had merged.  This explained why I was getting as many near matches from people who appeared to be near matches to my Dad as to those who appeared to be near matches for my Mom.
       She got an autosomal DNA test from FTDNA.  Then she got her brother to test for Y-DNA results.  She then paid for the testing of a family we both thought our great grandfather might have been the first son of.  To our great disappointment, he did not match with our cousin. (I have a female mtDNA in this family that has matched and we are trying to find the paper trail to the women in this family.)
       Then she met a woman who was the descendant of another family in our state that we had thought might be connected with us. They had a male from her friend’s family tested and his results came in.  Last night I found out that he did not match with us either.  A disappointment for us but a great boon for him because he and the descendant of the first family my cousin had tested DID match! 
       You might also enjoy knowing that my cousin found she has, much to everyone’s suprise,  some Ashkenazi Jewish genes. 
          This last Christmas my son-in-law suggested I take the 23andme test. I have the paper trail of three distant cousins from that test now.  What we need to know is that, the further back we have traced our family along the paper trail, the easier it is to get a fifth or sixth cousin.  This week I found a sixth cousin because the two of us who had loaded our info onto GEDmatch.com had both traced back the paper trail to Ireland.
       I recently found a paper trail for my ancestor in France and found a cousin on geneanet.com but she has not answered me.  Unfortuantely, I don’t speak French.  But she had the genealogy of my ancestor,who came to America with DeRochambeau to fight in the American Revolution, back four more generations.  I wish I could afford to have someone from her family tested with a male from my family and that we could go to France and reunite the family.  I managed to find the village that my French ancestor came from though the services of the registrar at the Rochambeau Chapter of the French and American DAR,  http://www.roch.darfrance.org/index/
      Another genealogy addict,
    Nannette

    • CarolZall

      Fascinating story, Nannette. The more you look, it seems the more there is to find…. it will be really interesting to see what happens as this science develops further and people are having their entire genomes sequenced.

  • CeCe Moore

    This is such an enjoyable show/blog, Carol. You did a really great job of bringing this subject to life for the casual listener. Like Daniel, my genome is mostly pretty boring too, however like Joe, I discovered some unknown Jewish ancestry (although mine is more distant and therefore difficult to trace). Thank you for the fun show on my favorite subject!
    CeCe Moore
    http://www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com

    • CarolZall

      Thanks, CeCe. It’s a subject that so many people are interested in, isn’t it? It’s incredible how many people do find something unexpected in their results – and fascinating the way it can complement traditional genealogical research. 

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_KC227XP6O737ESKY7CY5GRQVSM Imipak

    I have had my DNA tested and a few updates are currently in the pipeline. What I’ve discovered is that my father’s side probably originated in Norway, moving to northwest Scotland probably as mercenaries. The genealogical records don’t go far enough back to make the Scottish connection, but at least I now know where to look.

    One of the problems with DNA testing is that it is still very expensive, limiting the number of people who can be tested. That, in turn, limits the quality of the maps that can be drawn up on human migration. A second problem is that people got tested when the technology was much more primitive but haven’t got retested since. In consequence, most of the databases out there are stuffed with inaccurate and/or limited data sets for people. That makes searching for matches difficult to impossible.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=662087185 William Reeve

    Could the place you are seeking, “Kashuki” be the place named in Polish “Kosciuki” Northwest of Baranavichy (Polish “Baranowicze”)  at roughly 25° 50″ North latitude, 53° 28″ East longitude as shown on the attached 1931 Polish map? http://www.mapywig.org/m/wig300k/47_NOWOGRODEK_1928w1931.jpg

    • CarolZall

      Hi William,
      I’m finding it hard to read that map (it either loads too big or too small in my viewer) but thank you for the lead. I will investigate…..

      • william_reeve

        I have a digital file of a better 1928 map which I could e-mail you if you wish.  It is on a scale of 1:100,000 instead of the 1:300,000 of the map I attached to my message.  It shows more detail including about 14 or 15 houses in the village arranged in two rows down each side of a wide road.  If your software is like mine, you can zoom in or zoom out of the map image by typing ctrl + or ctrl – once the whole digital file has downloaded.

        • CarolZall

          Hi William, I have managed to take a better look at the map. I think you may be right – this may be the place! It correlates with some other information I have about the likely location. Thank you so much for your help with this – another listener also emailed me and suggested the same place! I am very grateful for your help – I have been wondering all my life about where this village might be.
          Thank you again.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=662087185 William Reeve

            The 1:100,000 scale map shows much more detail but the digital file of the whole map is too large for this service to handle.  I could e-mail it if you wanted.  I will attach a file of the corner of the map where the village is located.  I have come across two other completely separate locations with the same name so you have to be careful about references that mention the village name without specifying the district.  The village still exists and I have found it in Google Earth but GE is pretty skimpy with names for places in eastern Europe and does not show any name for the present village.

          • CarolZall

            Hi again William,
            Thank you again for the map detail! I have also managed to find the old map online and have located the village on Google. I do believe that the correct location is the one you identified – so thank you again! You have been a huge help.

          • CarolZall

            Hi again William,
            Thank you again for the map detail! I have also managed to find the old map online and have located the village on Google. I do believe that the correct location is the one you identified – so thank you again! You have been a huge help.

  • http://www.facebook.com/wagbyname Neil Wagstaff

    could your grandmother have been using a possible Yiddish dialect name of the village of Kazlouscyna in Belarus?

    • http://www.facebook.com/wagbyname Neil Wagstaff

       ahh i’ve just read you found it below

      • CarolZall

        Thanks for the note, Neil. I actually think I’ve now found the right place – thanks to the help of people who wrote in here, and listeners who emailed me! I’ll be adding an update all about it on the website soon – probably tomorrow!

  • http://twitter.com/lollander philip sidaway

    The redhead gene comes from Scandinavia, so there must be some Viking in your family, Carol. Coincidentally my wife has red-hair and was taken for a local when we visited Ireland, which was somewhat annoying as it is I who has the Irish heritage (maternal great-grandmother), and not her (French/Spanish lineage). But then ‘The English’ are a mongrel race.

  • dark lord

    I think that the genealogical history of a person and the history of a specific gene (of the same person) are very different. The social and cultural identities that we have developed over the last few thousand years (and continue to develop even today) are extremely artificial from a genetic perspective.

    The lesson we should learn from the genetic studies is that, the human genome is rather small (in its variation) compared to most other species. As a result the striking variation in human shape and form is a result of rather minor genetic mutations (and rather major quick cultural mutations) over a very short (biological) time span.  This implies that commonly held beliefs or race and cultural unicity are do not have a scientific (genetic) basis. 

    Then a genetic map of our ancestry can at best reveal points in the map where our ancestors have been living in their lifetime. But it has always been true historically that human populations migrated over and over. So how relevant is the fact that I share a gene with some Inuit tribe who now live in northern Canada but ‘once’ had a much larger geographic range?

    On the other hand I think it is fundamentally wrong (and divisive) to use words like “Ashkenazi Genomes” and “Indian Genomes” and “Eskimo genomes” and “Latin Genomes”. Why does the residue of a 15000 year old mitochondrial DNA (btw 15000 years predates Judaism by atleast a few thousand years) stand out in a rather Ashkenazi Genome?

    The human genome project is less than 15 years old. The understanding of human genome is far from over. At best we now know (and use) a few genetic markers to to trace our (human) ancestors. [We can theoretically as well trace out ape ancestors and tree ancestors by using some other markers.] The databases which comprise of sample genes from different populations that are used to compare a given genetic code are not statistically big enough. 
    As any ethnographer or anthropologist will tell you, we can use genetic information to refine or compare (triangulate) against other sources (like language, rituals, names etc). Genetic information
    by itself is misleading (it requires correct interpretation).

    In conclusion I would like to say that companies telling us about our genealogy by looking at our genetic map are almost as correct as those saying that “You cannot be the CEO of a fortune 500 company ” because you are 5’10″ and most CEOs are 6’2″!

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61204431 Rob Howe

    You are looking for the village of  “Kasciuki” (not “Kashuki”). It is roughly equidistanht from Baranavichy, Brest and Pinsk.

    • CarolZall

      Thanks, Rob. As you’ll see from some of the other comments here, I’ve had a lot of help from listeners/readers and I do think you are right – there’s a place called Kosciuki/Kastyaki/Kasciuki (and lots of other spellings) in about the right location that I now believe is the place I’ve been looking for. Thanks for writing!

      • http://www.facebook.com/miriam.cheun Miriam Cheun

        Hello Carol You mentioned that you had family that lived in Honduras. I find that to be so interesting. I was born in Honduras :-) and my 17 year old daughter’s name is Carol Ann

        • CarolZall

          Hi Miriam, and thanks for your comment. Actually it was one of the people I interviewed, Blaine Bettinger, who has maternal ancestry from Honduras. If you scroll up to the article above you’ll see the quotes from Blaine, who has a really fascinating story. His maternal line went back to Honduras in the 1820s but he couldn’t get back any further than that. However, DNA testing gave him new information that helped push his known family history deeper back in time. Anyway, thanks for your interest in the story!

  • sr77

    I just caught the show on The World’s year-end ‘best of 2012′ recap.

    Is there any data on how long you should wait to take the saliva sample after a French kiss?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Marc-Drogin/100000810304222 Marc Drogin

    Carol — You did a marvelous bit of work constructing that article.  I had to hang about by the bathroom radio not to miss it this evening and then went to the online version the moment supper was over.  Your use of music and your sense of humor made it a delight rather than just informative.  My wife of 52 years died recently after a long and painful illness.  She was an amateur archaeologist with a special fascination for the Neanderthals.  So your mention of 23andme being able to find such a connection just lifted my heart so very much.  I can see my wife smiling as I tell you about this.  I’ve written to 23andme asking if they can retrieve her DNA from a lock of her hair she’d discarded on her dresser.  I’m hoping they can and will then find if she had an ancestral as well as intellectual connection to the people she was constantly passionate to learn about.  So I must thank you for your starting all of this.  And a happy New Year to you!  

    • CarolZall

      Dear Marc,
      Thank you so much for writing! I am so sorry to hear about your late wife – please accept my condolences – but I was happy to hear that my story gave you a lift, and spurred your interest in pursuing more about genetic genealogy. From my understanding of how it works, I am not sure how much DNA can be retrieved from a lock of hair. However, if your wife had any siblings who are still living, and they are willing to be tested through 23andMe or a similar company, you could learn much about her family’s genetic history by going that route. I will be interested to hear what 23andMe tells you about whether they can help you with the lock of hair.
      One other note about the Neanderthal connection: it’s my understanding that all modern humans have traces of Neanderthal DNA – between 1 and 4 % – unless they are African. So if your wife was of non-African descent, then she did indeed have a bit of Neanderthal DNA.
      Thank you again for writing – I was touched by your story. And good wishes to you for the new year.
      Carol