Peter Thomson

Peter Thomson

The World’s environment editor Peter Thomson has been covering the global environment since 1991, and has served on the board of directors of the Society of Environmental Journalists since 1998. He is the author of Sacred Sea: A Journey to Lake Baikal.

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On Not Responding to Climate Deniers, and What I’d Say If I Did

**Update June 27: This is how science works.

Recently we ran a segment here at The World in which I talked with our host Marco Werman about four news items from around the world that were all small links in the much larger global chain of stories about coal, carbon dioxide, and climate change.

The next day we got one of those letters that news outlets that make a serious effort to cover climate change see a lot of: a complaint that The World blindly accepts a bogus scientific consensus on “the AGW (anthropogenic global warming) notion.”

“Mr. Thompson (sic) and PRI should investigate what they are promoting,” the listener wrote. He went on:

“What they will find is that there is no reason to believe that global temperature and climate are affected any more than tangentially by CO2 concentration. Most certainly it has never been proved that there is any relationship between them, and Mr. Thompson’s authoritative pronouncements (IIRC) on the subject should always be prefaced with ‘Some people believe’ rather than flatly making the mistaken statements that he has (again IIRC, he stated that CO2 causes global warming)… The facts are strongly against what Mr. Thompson has stated on air. His pulpit should be taken away from him.”

Climate Model Image, National Center for Atmospheric Research.  (Image: University Corporation for Atmospheric Research (UCAR))

Climate Model Image, National Center for Atmospheric Research. (Image: University Corporation for Atmospheric Research (UCAR))

The note prompted one of my colleagues to send me a note of her own: “You know, I’d love to get your smart and short answer to guys like this.”

It’s a variation on a question that swirls around a lot of newsrooms and, I’m sure, in the minds of many of our listeners/readers: How do we know what we know about climate change? Isn’t there still a debate over whether climate change is real, and if so what’s causing it? Why don’t we give more attention to the “skeptics?”

Climate science is maddeningly complex and even its fundamentals often outstrip the basic physics and chemistry most of us got in school. So it’s no wonder that journalists who don’t cover it struggle to understand it. Even those of us who’ve been covering it for years are constantly challenged to keep up with its subtleties, finer points, grey areas and cutting edges, as well as the areas of genuine debate.

But on the fundamentals of climate change there is no longer any serious scientific debate—the basic cause-and-effect principles are well understood and the evidence for the trajectory of rising average global temperatures is overwhelming.

What there is, is a political debate masquerading as a scientific debate, backed by immensely wealthy and powerful interests. And these folks have been extremely successful in muddying the popular understanding of both the science and the consequences.

So I thought it would be worth sharing my reply to my colleague with a larger audience. Here’s a slightly edited version:

I’d tell guys like this that every major national scientific academy in the world, and the vast majority of other credible and relevant scientific organizations, endorse the CO2-temperature link. It’s been demonstrated and proven for decades.

Then there’s the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change), which, despite claims to the contrary, based mostly on extremely small and marginal errors, accurately represents the consensus of thousands of scientists around the world.

I’d also remind him that science is a dynamic and ultimately self-correcting process and that while much remains unknown and uncertain in the unfathomably complex global climate system, and while many specific findings, projections and theories regarding climate change are and will continue to be proven wrong, the overall science and the physical and chemical principles behind it have been vetted more thoroughly than perhaps any others.

While it’s important to lay out the uncertainties when you get to specific parts of the science and projections, the basic science stands up and is overwhelming in its fundamental conclusions. Saying “some people believe” that levels of CO2 in the atmosphere affect the climate system is as absurd as saying that “some people believe” in evolution by natural selection or that “some people believe” in the laws of motion, gravity, thermodynamics, etc.

“Some people believe” that all of those things should be challenged, but they all have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt and to suggest that journalists should somehow recapitulate the status or process of this proof, or acknowledge the objections of fringe elements in every mention of the issue, is to ask us to go down a rabbit hole of endless explanation of established fact, diverting time and resources from our real work. Which I’m fairly certain is what this fellow and other “skeptics” want.

And that’s why I actually wouldn’t bother telling him any of this, or anything else, because, while I’m not familiar with him in particular, the vast majority of folks like him who claim to debunk well-established climate science aren’t driven by facts or the scientific process but by economic interests and/or ideologies. They don’t like the policy implications that climate science suggest for many people–primarily that we have to change the way we produce and use energy and other resources.

If they were intellectually honest these folks would say, yes this is happening, but the costs to the economy or personal freedom etc. of changing it are too high, so we shouldn’t even try. Problem is, with most people that’s a losing argument, so instead these folks try to undermine public understanding of the science and deliberately waste the time of scientists and journalists.

Which is why I’m not taking the bait anymore.

FYI, a great site/app for evaluating the assertions of climate “skeptics” is Skeptical Science, run by an Aussie named John Cook who has a BA in physics and also happens to be an evangelical Christian.


Peter Thomson is The World environment editor.

Discussion

21 comments for “On Not Responding to Climate Deniers, and What I’d Say If I Did”

  • http://twitter.com/questionAGW Russell Cook

    Considering the proprietor of the SkepticalScience web site was caught removing comments from his site that disagreed with his seemingly non-skeptical point of view ( http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/10/11/on-skepticalscience-%E2%80%93-rewriting-history/ ), I would take the suggestion to unquestioningly accept that one with a grain of salt.

    I would further point out that skeptics do not “deny” climate change – a highly charged viral talking point – but instead they question the validity of the assertion that human activity is largely responsible for global warming.

    Unlike those promoting the idea of man-caused global warming who do not encourage people to look at both sides of the issue, I highly recommend that people do exactly that. By all means, check out SkepticalScience, RealClimate.org and other such sites pushing that side of the issue. But also check out the skeptic side such as the NIPCC Reports http://www.nipccreport.org/reports/2011/2011report.html  and Climate Audit http://climateaudit.org/  and then compare what you see.
     
    Surely, there’s no harm in such an exercise, is there? The problem, I suppose, is that when anyone does so, they run headlong into discussions about whether human activity is actually the main thing driving the warming.  And that, it appears, is why so many on the IPCC side of the issue, seem to work so hard in telling the public not to listen to skeptic scientists, who are allegedly “backed by immensely wealthy and powerful interests”.

    The problem only thickens from that point, because when anyone seriously tries to look for actual proof that such ‘wealthy and powerful interests’ prompted outright disinformation – lies, in other words – no such proof is found. This only invites more scrutiny of the entire issue, as I noted in my article from Monday, “Global Warming’s Killer: Critical Thinking” http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/06/global_warmings_killer_critical_thinking.html

    • Hugh Markey

      Mr. Cook,

      While your comment is carefully worded, I took the time to read through some of the stories on American Thinker.  This site is a repository for right wing screeds against the President, gays, and others your site mocks for being liberal.  ”Thinker”  is an example of what Thomson meant when he wrote: “ Saying “some people believe” that levels of CO2 in the atmosphere affect the climate system is as absurd as saying that “some people believe” in evolution by natural selection or that “some people believe” in the laws of motion, gravity, thermodynamics, etc.

      This is another case of politicizing science, pure and simple. 

      Take a look at what that wacky group of crazy scientists at NASA have to say on the issue of climate change: http://climate.nasa.gov/ 

      • http://twitter.com/questionAGW Russell Cook

        Doesn’t it undermine your position somewhat when you make literally no attempt to refute a single word I say? Regarding my article I link to, I did make the attempt to place it at the Huffington Post, a left-wing ‘repository’ for screeds against President Bush, straights and others.

        If I could, I’d have my articles placed at every such left-wing site there is. So, if this is the best you can do, that doesn’t exactly work in your favor, does it?

        I’m already fully aware of what it says at the NASA site. Are you fully aware of how it is contradicted by what skeptic climate scientists have to say? I have no expertise to say which side is right, but as I have abundantly shown in my articles, the manner in which we are told to ignore the skeptics is highly questionable.

        • http://www.wottsupwiththat.com Ben

          So Russell… if every assertion you make isn’t explicitly refuted, that’s proof that it’s true? Nope. You’re confusing debating tactics (emotion, volume (both kinds…), repetition of disproven claims to sway the ill-informed, etc.) with science and logic.

          • http://twitter.com/questionAGW Russell Cook

            Oh, hi Ben, I notice you guys back at Wottsup (
            http://wottsupwiththat.com/2011/06/ ) couldn’t refute what I said about
            the smear of skeptic climate scientists, either. Actually, I’m not even asking for ‘explicit’ refutes, something at least in the range of the good ol’ college try will suffice. So once again, is the very best you can do?

            Astute readers here will readily see I don’t ‘repeat disproven claims’
            but instead suggest in low-volume non-emotional tones for people to
            consider both sides and decide for themselves.

            Aren’t you worried that readers will compare what you say to what I say
            and conclude that you are the one relying on ill conceived debate
            tactics when it would be far more convincing to use science and logic to
            wipe out the skeptics when it comes to their assessments and the
            accusations against them?

          • http://www.wottsupwiththat.com Ben

            First, your raising the false issue of “the smear of skeptical scientists” is a transparent attempt to change the subject. Now THAT’S a debate tactic!

            But yes, let’s all carefully analyze the statements of a attention-seeking retired graphic artist and self-described “Mainstream Media doubter” who was part of the nutbar ‘sky dragon’ gang! (You’ve really got to Google ’sky dragon’.)

            “Decide for yourselves” says Russell, but read an unscientific partisan response (for balance) every time you see a real scientific statement. Your tactic is to rely on repetition to overwhelm thought. If you tell someone “1 + 1 = 3″ enough times you’ll dull them into instinctively giving the same false answer.

            Problem is all these ardently spouted “skeptical” perspectives drain down to the same willful partisan deceptions. After 20 or 30 attempts at trying to make sense of them you can pretty easily judge the book by the cover.

            So I decline your daring suggestion that I let you lead me by the nose. Been there, done that, wanted the time back. Guess I wasn’t suggestible enough.

          • http://twitter.com/questionAGW Russell Cook

            Surfed back in here now from the result of clicking on a 29 June Tweet I had about this ‘no-debate debate’.

            Oh, Lordy, the pot calling the kettle black when it comes to changing the subject. Astute readers here will see Ben has still not refuted a single word I say about the smear of skeptics.

            Regarding the ‘sky dragon’ thing, I did Google search it just now, and the top result leads right back to Ben’s comment above. I think I know who Ben is referring to, but am at a total loss of how on Earth he can establish that I have any association with those folks. Unless he thinks the free reproduction of my articles at sites having an association with them is supposed to somehow convict me.

            He may decline my invitation to carefully examine the origins and people surrounding the long-term smear of skeptics all he wishes, but the continued failure to do so instead ends up looking like a combination of ‘whistling past the graveyard’ and sheer negligence when it comes to asking due diligence questions on whether the fossil fuel funding corruption accusation actually holds water.

  • http://twitter.com/BigJoeBastardi Joe Bastardi

    Seems like you do not have to do much to shoot down co2 arguments. Here is temp graph vs co2
    http://uscentrist.org/about/issues/environment/docs/HadleyMSU_temps_v_Co2.jpg/image_view_fullscreen

    amo plus  pdo  vs  temps

    http://wotsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/2010-smoothed-amopdo-vs-us-temp.jpg

    Finally  since the cold cycle of the  Pacific started  ( we were in the warm  cycel the  last  30 years)   the  3 year temp trend

    http://policlimate.com/climate/cfsr_t2m_2011.png

    If you were presented  these charts on a test, how would you answer

    • Brian Schmidt

      Joe Bastardi predicted in 2010 that Arctic sea ice would “recover dramatically” in 2011 back up to 2005 levels (which by the way were very low):

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G-ozEvSFVg 

      That of course was completely wrong, and 2011 was almost a tie with record-low 2007.

      I sure hope no one makes a copyright claim to disappear that Youtube clip of Bastardi’s prediction.

    • JimmySD

      Absolutely Priceless Joe!!!

      You posted a graph that makes fun of Anthony Watts and global warming deniers like you?

      Is it spelled watt or wot?

      Good job!

    • http://www.wottsupwiththat.com Ben

      That’s funny Joe, the chart of mine that you linked to highlights the lengths denialists like yourself will go to to mislead. To quote myself, “they chose their time period carefully so they could exclude the last ten years of warming that oppose the natural patterns. Then they smoothed the heck out of the data to artificially inflate the confidence of their results. Of course the AMO (detrended North Atlantic SST anomalies) and PDO (principal component analysis North Pacific SST anomalies, north of 20N) are incompatible values, so we have to wonder why they are combined. One graph does indeed say it all…” And even after all your jiggling, all you did was notice a correlation.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/CVYN2NBOJSYGVODGIAGB5NRQYY JoeD

    Russell Cook and Joe Bastardi have it exactly right. As for your recommended link, see Lubos Motl’s detailed point by point counter to John Cook’s laughable 104 talking points document attacking the skeptical science here: http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/reprint/John_Cook_Skeptical_Science.pdf

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Stanley-Lippmann/790914680 Stanley Lippmann

    Every major scientific body is a political animal and as corrupt as the governments that fund them.  97% of “professionals” believe the genocidal fraud of AGW because if they didn’t, they would be tossed in the street and blacklisted like I was 16 years ago. I will avenge my reputation. The essential problem is that biologists dominate the politics of science until now. A necessary reform is to recognize that biologist do not have the physics background to say anything about radiative transfer in the atmosphere. We are long overdue for the physicists to take control of science away from the biologists, who tend toward eugenics and atheism like Richard Dawkins. Especially Oxford and Cambridge biologists seem to hate themselves and wish to see 95% of us dead, projecting their divorce from truth onto the rest of us. They must be brought to justice for lying about AGW since 1896.

    Stan Lippmann Ph.D. , J.D.

    • JimmySD

      Stanley,

      I have a degree in Biology.

      If you have a problem with it take me to court.

      Please “bring me to justice”. I’d love to square off with you in a courtroom. I won’t travel to Seattle to do it, but if you’d like I’ll gladly give you my contact information so you can file a suit.

  • RDD1

    JoeD mentions Joe Bastardi. OK, good analogy of what is wrong with the “skeptic” argument. Bastardi is on record explaining that adsorption and reradiation of heat energy by CO2 cannot not physically possible because of the 1st law of thermodynamics.In Bastardi’s speel he clearly is saying he has disproved the long ago accepted role of the atmospheric greenhouse effect in general: take that Tyndall!  It is amazing how Bastardi then can co-exist with the less weatherman-ish of the “skeptics” that are somewhat more accepting of science in general would not think of challenging something so fundamental as CO2′s role as a GHG. All these guys happily coexist at “skeptic” “conferences”: You get geologists that say volcanic CO2 is forcing the recent rapid warming being documented; and other geologists that say we are about to enter an ice age which frustratingly continues to creep away; and those who think it’s the sun causing the warming; except it’s not warming according to the guy in the next room; and that’s why the sea ice in the artic isn’t shrinking; except it is, and the cause of the melting is geothermal heat; and on an on in a fascinatingly display of happ ycontradiction. Finally, I’m not sure what the best way to deal with the uncertain impacts of the energy buildup will be. I doubt “we” will get it together to mount a good response to the likely very troublesome changes coming, and I don’t trust beurocracy, but an honest person has to laugh at the “skeptic” version of science. Now, if I had AIDs or needed a water well withced, I call on the “skeptics”. Monckton says he has the cure and Morner has the twig :-)

    • smileyken

       a pity for your sad diatribe that Joe Bastardi has had such success at forecasting weather

      • RDD1

        “a pity for your sad diatribe that Joe Bastardi has had such success at forecasting weather”

        based on his understanding of atomospheric physics, Bastardi should stay with his area of expertise (meteorolgoy). This is not an insult, it’s a reminder that one can’t just make stuff up becuase it’s what you want to believe and expect those that see the laughable error/ logic to ignore it. Even in the managerie of professional skeptics, I would bet that those that do understand climate, like Roy Spencer (“God’s clouds will save us”), Lindzen (“the ‘iris’ will save us”), or Pat Michaels (“climate sensitivety is low, trust me, we will set a new LS temp record soon, but it’ll be OK”) cringed when they heard Bastardi’s comedy routine.

      • RDD1

        Oh…do you believe that the CO2 cannot possibly force a GH effect as Bastardi contends? Do you think this long accepted, emperically confirmed concept violates the first law of thermodynamics as Bastardi claims? Really? Regardless of sensitivity being 1 or 3 deg C? And  Bastardi’s “logic” would also be applicalbe to H2O. I think his embarressing display is just another case of a “skeptic’s” poor arguement constructed and presented in a vaccum,  fooling those that live in the vaccum, but falling apart outside of it. 

  • RDD1

    JoeD, would thatJoe Bastardi be the same guy that was featured on FOX News disproving the greenhouse effect by citing the first law of thermodynamics? Take that Tyndall! :-)
    I’ll give you that the  ”skeptics” are an interesting bunch: Monkcton can cure AIDs, Morner can witch you a water well….
    Not sure what we should do, much less what we will be able to agree on to do to address thetroublesome changes very likely coming, but an honest person has to laugh at the “skeptic’s” “science”. 

  • RDD1

    apologies for the double entry – I was registering to post and thought the first entry disappeared, so I re-entered.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Eli-Rabett/1444417779 Eli Rabett

    Well, the problem with claiming that CO2 high in the atmosphere where it is colder cannot radiate energy that is absorbed by the warmer earth is simply that the radiation has been observed for over 100 years, with increasing sophistication, but observed early in the 20th century none the less.  Those who are interested can read about Fourier’s pioneering work in the 1820s in what probably is the earliest paper on this.  Those interested in reading about a modern version of this work, can read about it here

    The net of this is that the net rate (emission minus absorption) that energy is radiated is lower then it would be without the greenhouse gases and that the surface is warmer than it would be without greenhouse gases.

    Roy Spencer set up a simple experiment to show this, and given the wall of denial he ran into (see the comments), anyone claiming that those in denial about climate change believe in the greenhouse effect, is simply blowing smoke.