But Mandela is rarely far from people’s minds.

Heidi Holland, a journalist based in Johannesburg, met Mandela frequently after his release from prison in 1990. Now she gets regular updates on his health.

“He’s not sick,” she says, “he’s just fading away, as old men do.”

“And he had a tough life, you know, all that breaking of rocks in the quarries at Robben Island.”

Holland has heard the question many times: what’s going to happen to South Africa when Mandela passes away?

“And I used to say quite glibly, ‘well he’s been out of active politics for such a long time, it’s not going to make any difference.’ But I’ve changed my mind about that.”

Heidi Holland (Photo: Alex Gallafent)

Today Heidi Holland looks at the ruling African National Congress, the party of Nelson Mandela, and she sees it corrupted by greed, ambition and infighting: things, she says, Mandela would not have tolerated.

“And so I have this growing nostalgia even though he isn’t dead yet,” she continues. “You just wonder where the voices of integrity will come from.”

Nelson Mandela has been the subject of criticism over the years, not least for actions he took when his then-wife Winnie Mandela was in legal trouble.

But nothing has really threatened his stature as the father of modern South Africa, even though it’s been more than a decade since he left office.

Bigboy Muhlwa, a geography teacher in Johannesburg, says that Mandela’s “presence cannot really go away.”

For him and many others, Mandela remains the country’s moral center, even as he’s absent from public life. He’s still the guy you want to turn to when things are going bad.

“The idea of Mandela, it goes and comes back,” says Muhlwa, adding that it comes back when people are talking about the most important things in their lives.

Amina Cachalia hears the same question again and again: ‘What’s going to happen when Mandela’s no longer here?’

Cachalia is a veteran of the freedom struggle, and she’s been a close friend of Nelson Mandela for more than sixty years.

She says people ask the question “as if he’s keeping us together in a way. That’s how people feel.”

Cachalia is upset at the thought of losing her friend, but she says South Africans have to face reality: Mandela will die, and there’s still basic work to be done.

Equal political freedom hasn’t yet translated into equal economic opportunity. Many young people are unemployed and angry.

From afar, it could look like the achievement of Nelson Mandela has been squandered and degraded.

But that’s not how Graunt Kruger sees things.

“Are we seeing a degradation of the era of Mandela? Well, the era of Mandela has gone.”

Kruger works with black women entrepreneurs for one of South Africa’s major banks. He says all South Africans are ‘Mandela’s children’. But children grow up, and–as he points out–these ones have accomplished great things.

“The ANC, the South African government, South Africa as a country [all] grew leaps and bounds beyond Mandela and probably beyond what his wildest expectations even were.”

Amina Cachalia (Photo: Alex Gallafent)

Kruger says South Africa’s institutions have matured since Mandela stepped down. He believes the country is now well-placed to meet its current set of challenges.

Indeed, Kruger wonders if the focus on Mandela is more for people outside the country, as if South Africans themselves can’t afford to stop and get nostalgic: there’s too much to do.

But there are some, like veteran activist Amina Cachalia, who are adamant that South Africa mustn’t forget the lessons of Mandela and his generation.

“I think our leadership has to buck up” she says pointedly.

“The examples have been set for them. The struggle’s been won in a way, and yet there’s a great struggle ahead for us.”

It may be impossible to live up the standards set by Nelson Mandela. But Cachalia says South Africans must try.

Alex Gallafent traveled to South Africa with assistance from the International Reporting Project.

Lesego Rampolokeng

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MARCO WERMAN:  I’m Marco Werman and this is The World.  The World Cup begins Friday in South Africa.  Up to 370,000 soccer fans from around the world are heading there.  Once they arrive they’ll have to find their way to the stadiums in the nine host cities.  And that won’t be as easy as picking up a map and following the route.  That’s because many South African street names have changed and it’s taking time to update the maps.  There’s another problem; Kyle G. Brown reports that the name changes themselves are taking time because not everyone is on board with them.

ROB FRY:  These signs that you see lying around here, these blue and white signs are all overhead signs.  They go up above the freeway.

KYLE G. BROWN:  Rob Fry is stepping up production at Le-Nash signs, a sprawling factory just outside Johannesburg.  He’s had to hire more staff and now keeps the factory going 24 hours a day, six days a week.

FRY: Right now we’re under quite a lot of pressure to complete all of the overhead signage for the Gauteng Highway improvement project just prior to the World Cup.  There’s only a few days left.

BROWN: It’s all to meet a rising demand for road signs in time for The World Cup.  And it’s also fueled by the drive to replace the names of streets and landmarks dating back to the colonial and apartheid periods.

FRY: It has been quite a big growth industry in name changes.  And so each area has come forth and eventually had their name changes approved and so that’s ongoing business and it will continue to be.

BROWN: With the end of white minority rule in 1994, Afrikaans and European names have been increasingly replaced with African ones.  That year, Jan Smuts Airport became Johannesburg International and then, OR Thambo, after the former head of the African National Congress.  National Defense Headquarters went from Voortrekkerhootge to Thaba-Tshwane.  Now more streets are being renamed too.  Map makers and locals are finding it hard to keep up.  Fanie Terblanche is Chairman of the Federation of South African Tourist Guide Associations.

FANIE TERBLANCHE:  It is a difficulty if you drive around and you’re looking for a place, you’re looking for an address, and all of a sudden you look up and there you see a name that you don’t know.

BROWN: He’s advising World Cup visitors to rely on GPS rather than street maps.  So far, more than 120 towns, rivers and dams have been renamed along with hundreds of streets across the country.  That’s a tiny proportion of the country’s total number of place names.  For Khorombi Dau, too many reminders of apartheid remain.

KHOROMBI DAU:  And you feel such a frustration.

BROWN: He’s an official with the City of Tshwane, where the capital Pretoria is located.

DAU: There are others whose names are they?  Those names should be removed.  Because they belong to a dark part of history.

BROWN: But those names won’t be removed without a fight.  In 2008 public debates over new names in Pretoria ended in gridlock.  Young Africano men sang racist songs and prevented others from speaking.

ANTON JANSEN:  I was disgusted that people from my culture, would act like this.

BROWN: Anton Jansen advises the city of Tshwane’s Public Place and Street Names Committee.  He says it wasn’t just the Afrikaner community shouting down proposed name changes.  Later on, members of the ANC did the same thing.

JANSEN: They called in all the youth leagues and they sat the whole auditorium full.  And as soon as a white man stood up, waaahhh!  We didn’t have a chance to say a word.  And there were intellectuals there, academics wanted to put their case.  So it was chaos.

BROWN: But the push for new names is about more than politics.

JANSEN: We are in one of the extensions of Mamelodi.

BROWN: Jansen takes me on a tour of a township just outside of Pretoria.  Most of the roads are unpaved.  Electricity is patchy.  The people live in shacks with corrugated tin roofs.

JANSEN: The next phases now to move these people to an area where houses have been built and then the last phase is to name the streets.

BROWN: During the apartheid era many township streets such as they were, had no names.  In the city of Tshwane alone, an estimate 14,000 remain nameless.

JANSEN: If there is an emergency here in the village where we are now, he or she must explain over the telephone where they are phoning from.  The streets got no names, so for the emergency vehicles it’s impossible to be of assistance to the inhabitants here.

BROWN: Just a few minutes from Mamelodi, a campaign is under way to rename the capital Pretoria to Tshwane.  The government announced the change earlier this year, but there was such an outcry that it retracted the decision and has been silent on the matter ever since.  Some say the status quo, Pretoria in the Municipality of Tshwane, is a perfect compromise.  If so, it’s in good company.  The province once called Natal is now KwaZulu Natal.  And the national anthem previously sung only in Afrikaans is now a multilingual combination of Die Stem and Nkosi Sikelel’iAfrika.  They’re just some of the creative compromises that are helping South Africa emerge from its apartheid past.  For The World, I’m Kyle G. Brown in Johannesburg.

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• BBC coverage
• ANC Youth League

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MARCO WERMAN:  Next we hear about a challenge facing South Africa’s ruling party.  The African National Congress is the party of Nelson Mandela, the party of the Rainbow Nation, but the leader of the ANC’s Youth League doesn’t seem to be on board.  Julius Malema is known for his fiery racial rhetoric and it’s resonating with some black South Africans who feel not enough has changed since apartheid.  The leadership of the ANC is considering disciplinary action against Malema.  The World’s Laura Lynch examines Malema’s past and future in South African politics.  Her report begins on Robben Island, off the coast of Cape Town.

LAURA LYNCH:  Julius Malema began his life in politics at the age of nine attending rallies, watching and listening.  At the same time Thubasi Mabaso, convicted of planting a bomb for the ANC, was sitting in his cell at the infamous Robben Island Prison.

THUBASI MABASO:  Every day.  Every day this how they do.

LYNCH: The crash of the cell door closing punctuated the end of the day for Mabaso.  He was released in 1991 and now works here as a Prison Guide.  Standing in his old cell, Mabaso recalls his release and the first post-apartheid election in 1994.

MABASO: ’94 I was so excited.  It was exciting for everyone.  I remember.

LYNCH: Mabaso’s struggle to live in a nation where all races are equal still provokes powerful feelings.  And it’s why he believes Julius Malema is doing damage to the dream he fought for.  Mabaso said that to Malema’s face when he met him last year.

MABASO: We are a ruling party and we need to show people an example but utterances like what you say sometimes are dangerous.

LYNCH: Malema recently defied a court order banning this old ANC song “Kill the Boer” or “Kill the White Man”.  He also traveled to Zimbabwe and endorsed Robert Mugabe, despite the ANC’s official neutrality on Zimbabwe’s politics.  And then came this, a confrontation with a BBC reporter in Johannesburg.

JULIUS MALEMA:  Don’t come here with that white tendency, not here.  You can do it somewhere else, not here.

LYNCH: Malema has only been ANC Youth Leader for two years.  He was raised by a single mother in a poor township and he struggled at school, yet he’s still touted by some as a potential leader.  Johannes, a student at the University of the Western Cape is hoping Malema will rise to the top.

JOHANNES:  I’m really behind him.  Because I really believe some of the issues, especially to do wit the current status of the country now, some of the issues need to be tackled seriously.  Like the race issue.

LYNCH: Measuring Malema’s influence isn’t easy.  He grabs headlines and generates controversy.  And the Youth League created by Nelson Mandela, Oliver Tambo and Walter Sisulu plays a powerful role in party politics.  But former ANC loyalist Rhoda Kadalie says Malema is no Mandela.

RHODA KADALIE:  I was in the struggle when he was in nappies and I resent a buffoon like him being portrayed to me as a potential leader.

LYNCH: Still, Kadalie says she understands how Malema has grabbed so much power.

KADALIE: Malema is a creation of the ANC.  He ushered Zuma into the Presidency, and now he thinks that he can get away with murder, and he does.

LYNCH: Malema did back Zuma in the contest for the Presidency, support Zuma was only too happy to have, even wit the youth leader used language like this:

MALEMA:  We are prepared to die for Zuma.  We are prepared to take up arms and kill for Zuma.

LYNCH: There are those who say Malema’s reputation as a firebrand isn’t about championing the cause of poor black South Africans, instead it’s meant to distract the public from corruption allegations against him.  But the fact remains, he’s able to tap into the anger of millions and the ANC leadership knows that.

MABASO: You see this place, it was clean.  It was nice and green.  We maintain it.

LYNCH: Mabaso is sitting beside the field he and the other prisoners used as a soccer pitch all those years ago.  As South Africa prepares to host the World Cup, Mabaso worries about what kind of message Julius Malema is sending out.  Two days ago Mabaso was asked to intervene in a fight between two rival gangs of boys in his township.  When he arrived, he says they were singing Kill the Boer, hearing that, says Mabaso made him shudder.  For The World, I’m Laura Lynch on Robben Island

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• BBC Audio slideshow: Long walk to freedom
• Archive video: Nelson Mandela freed after 27 years in prison

• ‘Skin’ homepage
• Phillip Martin’s reports on albinism
• Other Color Initiative stories by Phillip Martin

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KATY CLARK: It’s been 15 years since South Africa abandoned its brutal system of racial segregation. But a new movie is reminding South Africans of the days when apartheid was the law. The film is called Skin. It’s based on the painful true story of Sandra Laing, a woman with dark skin born to white parents in 1955. Phillip Martin has the story.

PHILLIP MARTIN: Sandra Laing’s skin color didn’t matter in her early years. She and her family lived in a rural part of South Africa. It was only when her parents enrolled her in a white boarding school that her troubles began. Her older brother went to the school but he had lighter skin and was considered white. But Sandra’s skin was darker and she wasn’t welcome. Her father played by actor Sam Neill shows the headmaster documents to prove his daughter’s whiteness.

FATHER: What does this say?

HEADMASTER: A piece of paper is not going to reassure all the parents who call me everyday to complain that there’s a black child at this school. Sandra is a disruption. Sandra does not belong here.

MARTIN: Sandra is then reclassified as colored, the South African term for mixed race, and is forced to leave the school. Her father, a proud Afrikaner, challenges the classification. A 10-year-old Sandra Laing gets brought before government board. They measure her head, her torso, and the thickness of her curly hair. Her father erupts.

FATHER: I’m telling you she’s white. I’m her father. I’m as white as you are. This is her mother. Undeniably white. And Sandra is our daughter. Blood of our blood.

MARTIN: Then a genetics expert testifies on behalf of Sandra’s family.

GENETICS EXPERT: I believe there’s a plausible genetic explanation for Sandra’s appearance. The history of our country is such that many indeed we believe most Afrikaners carry black genes.

JUDGE: Silence. Please go on.

GENETICS EXPERT: So two white-looking parents can contribute enough black genes to produce a child quite a lot darker then themselves.

MARTIN: The South African government accepted the explanation and amended the constitution to recognize the children of two white parents to be white, regardless of appearance. And so Sandra Laing was reclassified as white. But she never returned to the school. At age 16 Sandra fell in love with a black man and ran away. She was then jailed for violating laws against interracial relationships. Her parents won her release and invited her home. But Sandra then pregnant chose to move with her boyfriend to a black township. She then tried to get herself reclassified again as colored. Sandra eventually left her husband and moved with her children to the outskirts of Johannesburg where she worked in a factory. Anthony Fabian, the director of skin, heard about Sandra’s story a few years ago when he was interviewed on the BBC.

ANTHONY FABIAN: I was moved to tears by her story and also very angered by it because it was clear that although Sandra’s white family had prospered Sandra was living still in abject poverty in a township. Didn’t own her home. Could barely afford to clothe or feed her children. And I felt that some kind of reparation needed to be done. And as a filmmaker I had an opportunity not only to tell her story and bring it to the world but also to make a difference at the center of it.

MARTIN: Sandra tried for years to contact her parents but her letters were always returned. Then in 2001, 27 years after she left home, Sandra was reunited with her mother who died soon after. She never saw her father again but in an interview Sandra Laing says she believes he never stopped loving her.

SANDRA LAING: My mother told me that my father died and she wanted my address to send me some money that my father left me. I just felt that my father still loved me which is angry because I left him.

MARTIN: But to this day Laing’s brothers refuse to speak to her. Directory Anthony Fabian says Sandra’s story reaches far beyond South Africa.

FABIAN: It’s about how we treat people who are different from ourselves. In the United States with a bi-racial president the racial identity debate has really come to the fore. And I think it’s very important that we keep that debate present – that we keep talking about these issues because they haven’t gone away.

MARTIN: Skin, the film about Sandra Laing, opens today in New York and Los Angeles. For The World I’m Phillip Martin.

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After Joe Wilson’s “you lie!”, after Kanye West at the MTV awards, after Serena Williams’ outburst at the US Open, you may think: enough already with nasty speech! Well, you ain’t heard nothin’ yet. This week, a report on a series of Dutch cartoon that are offensive – really offensive. Deliberately so, according to the Dutch-based Arab group behind them. The group claims that Dutch law exercises a double standard when it comes to speech and religion: while it often censors anti-semitic speech – like the cartoons in question – it tolerates anti-Muslim speech.

Then, gadfly-journalist Max du Preez. Du Preez has been upsetting his fellow South Africans for decades – first, he upset his father by becoming a communist, then he upset the apartheid regime with his muckracking journalism. He edited Vrye Weekblad the only Afrikaans-language paper that exposed the murders, beatings and corruption of the racist government. That upset almost an entire people: du Preez’s people, South Africa’s Afrikaners. Only after the end of apartheid, when morality ceased to be a moveable feast, did du Preez’s father speak to him again.

These days, du Preez has new enemies: the South African Broadcasting Corporation, which fired him; former president Thabo Mbeki who du Preez called a womanizer; and agricultural giant Monsanto, which du Preez says is ruining rural South Africa by spreading genetically modified crops.

Finally, government free speech. This doesn’t come up much. Governments oversee free speech laws; they rarely get caught up in their own free speech shenanigans. Not the Danish government. Not Denmark’s tourist bureau. For its latest edgy advertizing campaign the bureau staged a faux one night stand between a young blonde Danish woman and a foreign man with apparently no name, and no nationality. Johnny Foreigner, as it were. Here’s the ad:

This was supposed to be a come-on to foreign visitors; instead it had Danish politicians trying to curb the speech of their own government.

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The Reunion is a series from the BBC’s Radio 4. Each week it reunites a group of people intimately involved in a moment of modern history. In this edition, host Sue MacGregor looks back to the release of Nelson Mandela and the end of the apartheid regime in South Africa.  She gathers together the key individuals involved in secret talks which led to Nelson Mandela’s release from prison and the end of the apartheid regime in South Africa.

MacGregor is joined by Archbishop Desmond Tutu, who led the Free Mandela Campaign throughout the 1980s; Dr Niel Barnard, who was the head of South Africa’s National Intelligence Service and who had dozens of clandestine meetings with Mandela; Professor Willie Esterhuyse, an Afrikaner academic who liaised between the government and the ANC; Aziz Pahad, who was a core member of the ANC and led many of its delegations; former President Thabo Mbeki, who was a lead negotiator for the ANC; and journalist and political commentator Allister Sparks, who chronicled the negotiations in a revealing book.

Former President FW de Klerk also contributes to the program, describing the surprise that he and other cabinet figures felt when they learnt of the years of secret meetings.

More at BBC Radio 4 .

Our history podcast How We Got Here looks back at Senator Edward Kennedy’s contribution to the anti-apartheid movement. We also talk to Pulitzer-Prize winning author Tracy Kidder. He’s written a new book,  Strength in What Remains, about a genocide survivor’s quest to come to terms with his memories. And finally the story of a new museum in Warsaw dedicated to the history of Jews in Poland.

Senator Edward Kennedy has died at 77 after a long battle with a brain tumor. The Massachusetts Democrat was a dominant force in American and foreign politics for almost 50 years. The Nelson Mandela Foundation in South Africa praised Kennedy for making “his voice heard in the struggle against apartheid at a time when the freedom struggle was not widely supported in the West.” Jeb Sharp looked at Kennedy’s role in ending apartheid.
>>> BBC obituary
Have Your Say: read comments from around the world about Kennedy’s legacy
A life in pictures

Boston Globe obituary

The possible presidential implications of the CIA interrogations probe; also, the story of a former student democracy activist in China; plus, remembering Ted Kennedy’s fight against apartheid.

Senator Ted Kennedy died last night at the age of 77 after a year-long battle with brain cancer. The World’s Jeb Sharp looks back on the legacy of the man called the “liberal lion of the Senate.”

>>> BBC obituary
Have Your Say: read comments from around the world about Kennedy’s legacy
A life in pictures

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This text below is a phonetic transcript of a radio story broadcast by PRI’s THE WORLD. It has been created on deadline by a contractor for PRI. The transcript is included here to facilitate internet searches for audio content. Please report any transcribing errors to theworld@pri.org. This transcript may not be in its final form, and it may be updated. Please be aware that the authoritative record of material distributed by PRI’s THE WORLD is the program audio.

KATY CLARK: I’m Katy Clark and this is The World, a co-production of the BBC World Service, PRI and WGBH Boston.  Tributes to Senator Edward Kennedy continue to pour in today from around the globe.  He’s being remembered as a masterful lawmaker, eminent statesman and the patriarch of the Kennedy clan.  Kennedy is best known for his focus on domestic issues, such as healthcare and education, but his influence was felt on the international scene as well.  Kennedy became a voice for ending the war in Vietnam, a conflict that started in earnest during the administration of his brother, John F. Kennedy.  Though Senator Kennedy initially supported the war, by 1968 he called it, “a monstrous outrage.”  Here’s Senator Kennedy speaking in 1972.

SENATOR EDWARD KENNEDY: We’ve got a responsibility to see that this war ends, and I don’t think it does the American people — what is equally important is the Vietnamese people any good to have a continuation of the violence and the killing which is taking place today.  I think the president ought to call for an immediate cease fire in the DMZ, and to go back to the peace negotiations in Paris and to insist that we’re going to end this war.  That’s what he pledged the American people, but still the war goes on, still the killing goes on.

KATY CLARK: Kennedy was also a strong proponent of the Northern Ireland peace process.  The Senator played a leading role here in supporting Irish Nationalists in Northern Ireland.  In 1997 he met with Sinn Fein leader Jerry Adams.  It was Adams’s first visit to the U.S. after the IRA restored its cease fire.  Senator Kennedy spoke at a joint press conference in Washington.

SENATOR EDWARD KENNEDY: All of us have seen what violence has meant in Northern Ireland over the period of the past years and also what the cease fire and the possibilities and the prospect for peace can mean in Northern Ireland as well.

KATY CLARK: Edward Kennedy also fought to end apartheid rule in South Africa, and he championed legislation to bring that about.  The World’s Jeb Sharpe takes a look back.

JEB SHARP: Those who knew him say Ted Kennedy’s opposition to apartheid was a natural extension of what he stood for.  He found apartheid morally repugnant and he wanted to see it dismantled.  The anti-apartheid movement in the U.S. took off in 1984.  The following year Kennedy visited South Africa to see conditions there for himself.

SENATOR EDWARD KENNEDY: And while I’m here in that spirit of open inquiry and cooperation, I must say to you quite frankly that I also come with an abiding commitment to basic human values.  High among those values are a belief in the fundamental equality of all people, a belief in the right of all individuals, regardless of the color of their skin, to social and political justice, and a deep opposition to the entire concept of apartheid.

JEB SHARP: Later that year Kennedy introduced legislation to impose economic sanctions on South Africa.  The Anti-Apartheid Act became law in 1986, after Congress overrode a veto by President Ronald Reagan.  Randall Robinson was a prominent anti-apartheid activist at the time.  He says Kennedy was absolutely key to its passage.

RANDALL ROBINSON: What we did that resulted in the overriding of Ronald Reagan’s veto, the first time in the 20th century that a foreign policy veto of a sitting president had been overridden by the Senate, that could not have happened without Ted Kennedy.  He was not just a major force, he was the essential, he was the indispensable force.

JEB SHARP: Robinson is now a professor of human rights law at the Dickinson School of Law at Penn State University.  He says those U.S. sanctions spelled the beginning of the end for apartheid.

RANDALL ROBINSON: It could not sustain without American investment, American companies, American technology, American weapons support, all of that.  We underpinned that system.  What Senator Kennedy did was to pull that to a full stop, really, in the last analysis, and that went around the world and made a difference in every Western capital.

JEB SHARP: So how did Kennedy pull off the legislative feats he’s so well known for?  Robinson says in this case it was a kind of magic.  Kennedy knew how to bring people together across the aisle, and he had a casual way of relating, that put people at ease, without showiness or bombast.

RANDALL ROBINSON: The magic can’t be found in the things he did; the magic was in the fashion with which he did these things.  And it was a fashion that made everyone involved quite comfortable,  and quite fulfilled,  and quite easy in the sort of collective harness to drive this movement to fruition.

JEB SHARP: Former Senator Lowell Weicker was one of the Republicans who was instrumental in getting the sanctions legislation through.  He says a big part of Kennedy’s skill came down to having his facts right.

SENATOR LOWELL WEICKER: Ted always had a total mastery of the subject matter.  He was far and away the most prepared Senator that I ever dealt with when I was there.  And you know that when you walk into the room and talk with him.  You’re not just talking with a politician that has some vague philosophy; he understands the situation and tries to plumb all the areas of information so that he comes forth with a complete answer.

JEB SHARP: In the case of South Africa, Kennedy worked hard to find out what the people affected by apartheid wanted.  He communicated constantly with members of the African National Congress, so much so that Weicker said it was as if Kennedy were working the issue from Pretoria, not Washington.  The ANC issued a statement about Kennedy today, praising him for his work against apartheid.  ANC spokeswoman Jessie Duarte says he is well remembered there, including for his 1985 visit.

JESSIE DUARTE: He was here to talk about the rights of people to a regime who did not respect any sorts of rights of any people and in fact had just implemented a state of emergency.  So it was an important visit.

JEB SHARP: Duarte and many others around the world sent heartfelt condolences to Kennedy’s family today, almost as if to say, “We know he was beloved there in America, but don’t forget his contributions to our lives as well.”  For The World, I’m Jeb Sharp.

Copyright ©2009 PRI’s THE WORLD. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to PRI’s THE WORLD. This transcript may not be reproduced, in whole or in part, without prior written permission. For further information, please email The World’s Permissions Coordinator at theworld@pri.org.