George Bush came roaring back into British consciousness today with just a few simple phrases.

For a start, he told both NBC and the Times of London newspaper the same thing – waterboarding – which simulates drowning- isn’t torture, it isn’t illegal and this is why.

“BECAUSE THE LAWYERS SAID IT WAS LEGAL. SAID IT DID NOT FALL WITH IN THE ANTI TORTURE ACT,” Bush said. “I’M NOT A LAWYER BUT YOU GOTTA TRUST THE JUDGMENT OF PEOPLE AROUND YOU AND I DO. I WILL TELL YOU THIS, USING THOSE TECHNIQUES SAVED LIVES. MY JOB WAS TO PROTECT AMERICA. AND I DID.”

And when Bush was asked whether he personally ordered the use of waterboarding against ACCUSED 9/11 PLANNER Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the former president was succinct. Damn right, he said.

Bush – ever the divisive figure here – stirred up debate on radio call-in shows today.

One man said, “EVERYTIME I WATCH THE PICTURES OF THE PLANES CRASHING INTO THE WORLD TRADE CENTRE MY BLOOD RUNS COLD. I DON’T CARE IF SOMEBODY SITS DOWN WITH A PAIR OF PLIERS AND A BLUNT PAIR OF SCISSORS TO GAIN THE INFORMATION THAT’D EVER STOP THAT HAPPENING AGAIN.”

But another a listener chimed in, “YOU KNOW I THINK GEORGE BUSH SHOULD BE TAKEN TO THE HAGUE OR TRIED AGAINST THE GENEVA CONVENTION OR WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE BECAUSE HE’S COMMITTED CRIME.”

Bush repeated assertions that the use of waterboarding foiled attacks on Heathrow Airport and the Canary Wharf business district in London.

But Kim Howells, a minister in the Foreign Office under former prime minister Tony Blair, casts doubt on that claim.

He said, “WHERE I DOUBT WHAT PRESIDENT BUSH HAS SAID IS THAT THIS, WHAT WE REGARD AS TROTURE ACTUALLY PRODUCED INFORMATION WHICH WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN PREVENTING THOSE PLOTS COMING TO FRUITION AND MURDERING PEOPLE IF YOU LIKE.”

The British government does classify waterboarding as torture. David Davis, a Conservative Member of Parliament, said Bush’s words made him angry.

“HE TALKS ABOUT BEING MORTIFIED ABOUT WHAT HE TERMS ‘FALSE INTELLIGENCE’ THAT LED TO THE WAR IN IRAQ. YOU KNOW WHERE THAT FALSE INTELLIGENCE CAME FROM – A LARGE PART OF IT? IT CAME FROM THE TORTURE OF MR. AL LIBI AND THEN THE ILLEGAL RENDITION THEREAFTER. AND THAT’S THE PROBLEM WITH TORTURE. PEOPLE UNDER TORTURE TELL YOU WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR.”

Bush’s frank admission that he directly authorised waterboarding is prompting some human rights activists to suggest the former president could be arrested if he travels to countries that have ratified the UN convention against torture.

Tom Porteous, the UK Director of Human Rights Watch, said if a case can be built against the former president, it’s in the interests of global justice for him to stand trial.

“IT IS TORTURE, THERE’S NO TWO WAYS ABOUT IT,” said Porteous. “INSTEAD OF TRYING TO JUSTIFY IT, GEORGE BUSH SHOULD BE REPUDIATING IT. AND HE SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT THE USE OF TORTURE AND THE AUTHORISATION OF TORTURE BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT HAS DONE HUGE DAMAGE TO AMERICA’S REPUTATION AROUND THE WORLD.

If Bush’s robust defence RE-KINDLED SOME anger some here, some of his other remarks may make things worse.

In the newspaper interview, the former president said he didn’t really care too much about British public opinion both during the Iraq war and now.

“It doesn’t matter how people perceive me in England, ” he said. ” It just doesn’t matter any more. And frankly, at times, it didn’t matter then.”

Download MP3

Some great voices in this episode of the podcast.

Paul Pillar of Georgetown University was at the CIA for 28 years before retiring in 2005. He was an expert on South Asia and counter-terrorism at the agency. Pillar told me there’s good reason for frustration at the CIA over all this.

I also talked with former CIA officer Robert Baer. Much of his career was spent in the Middle East. Baer told me he could have tortured detainees a number of times over the years. But he never did. He said that’s not because he was categorically against it on moral grounds in all cases. But he said it’s simply because torture doesn’t work. It doesn’t produce solid intelligence. Baer wants President Obama to take the preliminary investigation into CIA abuse and kick it up a notch.

Mark Bowden has written fantastic stuff for The Atlantic on the issue of interrogations. He told me this would be a simple matter if it was always true that non-coercive methods of interrogations worked best in all cases. But it’s not that simple, Bowden said. However, he’s also very supportive of the way the Obama administration has broken with the past.

David Cole is the author of The Torture Memos. Cole said failing to hold those responsible for breaking laws on torture would allow future American presidents to repeat the mistakes of the Bush administration. But he added that this could be achieved without going down the road of full-blown criminal investigation.

There are, of course, differences of opinion on the question of how far up the chain of command the Obama administration should go with any investigation or inquiry. I talked about this with Stephen Walt of Harvard University’s Kennedy School of Government, Robert Jervis of Columbia, and David Kennedy at Stanford.