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Lisa Mullins:  The worsening relationship with Egypt is another major concern for Israel.  The two nations signed a peace agreement back in 1979 but since the fall of president Hosni Mubarak of Egypt that peace seems shaky.  Egypt’s current prime minister said yesterday that the peace agreement with Israel is not sacred and that it could be changed if needed.  Israel’s ambassador to the U.S., Michael Oren, doesn’t think that comment signals a formal change in Cairo.

Michael Oren:  I think that the Egyptians have made a commitment in the peace treaty.  It’s a commitment not just to Israel, it’s also a commitment to the United States which is a co-signatory there and I think that when Egyptian politicians or leaders are speaking to a populous audience they may say one thing but they’re certainly reassuring us and the Americans that they have very intention of living up to their international commitments.  We see our peace with Egypt as a paramount strategic interest and I think that that feeling is reciprocated on the Egyptian side.

Mullins:  What about the Egyptian people themselves thought?  I mean the attack on Israel’s embassy in Cairo last weekend, what does that say about the willingness of the Egyptian people to forge a lasting peace with Israel?

Oren:  I think perspective is very important here.  The people who carried out the attack were in the main fans of a certain soccer club in Egypt that had encountered the police and they were very angry but I think I want to call your attention to a Tweet that was sent out by [indiscernible 00:01:22].  You remember him.  He was the young Google executive who became one of the heroes of that Tapir Square demonstrations.  He sent out a Tweet saying that this type of attack on the Israeli embassy is not what this revolution is about.  The revolution is about democracy.  It’s about job opportunities, a future for Egyptians; it’s not about attacking a peace treaty that has existed for 32 years.

Mullins:  Do you have any fear at all that what’s going on now in Egypt could turn into a hot conflict?  I mean to what extent do you think that Israel needs to be afraid of the new Egypt?

Oren:  I don’t think we have to be afraid of the new Egypt.  I think that they Egyptian people have spoken and we understand that there may be an interim period of bumps as Egypt works out its very significant internal problems but ultimately Israel has an immense interest in the emergence of a genuine and peace loving democracy in Egypt and our working assumption is that when that type of democracy emerges, the Egyptian people will realize as the people of Israel realize that peace is in our interest and that we have to focus on making our societies better, making our economies stronger, and not wasting precious material and human resources on conflicts.

Mullins:  Let me broaden that out a little bit to the Arab spring countries in general.  I mean here, as you mentioned, they’re bringing Arab citizens closer to democracy but to what extent has the Arab spring been a game changer for Israel?  I mean it sounds like it’s reeking havoc.  Is there another side to it?

Oren:  No, there definitely is another side to it.  On one hand, yes, we do see risks.  We’ve had some bad experience with similar situations in the past.  You may remember the cedar revolution in Lebanon which held out the hope for greater freedom for the Lebanese but that revolution was hijacked by Hezbollah.  Lebanon is essentially under the control of Hezbollah today.  Even the Iranian revolution, 1979, began as a largely secular westernized revolution that was hijacked by radicals because the radicals tend to be in our area better organized, better funded than some of those secular democratic movements.

Mullins:  But that’s a risk of upheaval isn’t it?

Oren:  That is a risk of it but there’s also the side of opportunities that we see.  Look what’s happening in Syria.  In Syria we see the possible overthrow of a very vicious regime under Bashar al-Assad and we saw that as an opportunity to perhaps break the dangerous alliance between Syria and Iran to lessen the stranglehold that the Syrians have had on Lebanon.  We are certainly not urging anybody to go slow on Syria.  We don’t prefer the devil we know to one we don’t know.  Bashar al-Assad is more devil than anybody can handle.  We’d like to see him go.

Mullins:  Let’s wrap up with the vote next week on Palestinian statehood.  This vote at the United Nations is going to be happening.  This would be a unilateral declaration of statehood without peace negotiations, a move that you and your government in Israel have opposed.  The United States has opposed it as well.  Why do you oppose it?  This is something that Israel has supported in the past, Palestinian statehood.

Oren:  We do support the emergence of a Palestinian state but a Palestinian state that emerges as a result of direct negotiations with us, a state that recognizes us, that has security arrangements with us, not a state that’s unilaterally declared and with a stated objective of Palestinian leaders, a state that will come into being in order to greater or more rigorously prosecute the war against us.  So this is just the opposite of peace is what’s going to happen in the UN next week.  And it’s quite unfortunate because we are committed to sitting with the Palestinians directly and discussing all the issues to reach that two state solution which is a real peace and not a unilaterally declared state that will only set back peace.

Mullins:  All right.  Michael Oren is the Israeli ambassador to the United States.  He joined us from Washington.  Thank you.

Oren:  Thank you very much.

Copyright ©2009 PRI’s THE WORLD. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to PRI’s THE WORLD. This transcript may not be reproduced, in whole or in part, without prior written permission. For further information, please email The World’s Permissions Coordinator at theworld@pri.org.

Read the Transcript
This text below is a phonetic transcript of a radio story broadcast by PRI’s THE WORLD. It has been created on deadline by a contractor for PRI. The transcript is included here to facilitate internet searches for audio content. Please report any transcribing errors to theworld@pri.org. This transcript may not be in its final form, and it may be updated. Please be aware that the authoritative record of material distributed by PRI’s THE WORLD is the program audio.

DAVID BARON: Tensions are still high between Israel and Lebanon two days after a deadly border skirmish. On Tuesday, an Israeli decision to prune a tree along its disputed border with Lebanon resulted in an exchange of fire between the two sides. A senior Israeli military officer was killed. Israel says he was shot by a Lebanese sniper. Three people died on the Lebanese side, two soldiers and a journalist. Though it’s still not clear exactly what happened, Israel’s ambassador to the US, Michael Oren, insists it was an unprovoked attack.

MICHAEL OREN:  This was a routine foliage clearing operation which we conduct regularly. Very similar to the operations that the United States military conducts along the South Korean- North Korean border. And we did it in conjunction with United Nations forces there. There was a United Nations forces patrol observing the operation, coordinating with the Lebanese army, and I think we have reason to believe that the fact that the Lebanese army was warned in advance gave them time to bring in a Hezbollah news team in a van. They were there to record the murder of our soldiers.

BARON:  Are you saying, are you implying, or stating out right that this was a premeditated attack on the Israeli soldiers?

OREN: We can’t say for certain. But the fact that there was a journalist there. There was a journalist van, there was a journalist killed in the exchange, would tend to indicate that somebody knew about this in advance and wanted to cover it for Hezbollah media. The journalist was Hezbollah and Hezbollah media from the Al-Manar media network, which is the Hezbollah network. And it seems rather a strange coincidence that in a remote Lebanese village where a sniper is taking aim at an Israeli officer within Israeli territory, that there just happens to be a camera crew there.

BARON: So are you saying the Lebanese government tipped off the TV station?

OREN: Well we know that any piece of information that goes to the Lebanese army immediately finds its way into Hezbollah’s hands. And I think there are a lot of dots here. And while they can’t be connected definitively, conclusively, they would seem to suggest that there was some premeditated and coordinated activity.

BARON: This sort of incident jangles nerves on both sides of the border. And it stirs fears of another war between Israel and Lebanon, like the one four years ago. Still, Ambassador Oren maintains that there are signs that peace is possible in the region, even though many see it sliding closer to chaos.

OREN: I can understand the skepticism. We’ve had years now of conflict. Recent conflict in Gaza, in Lebanon before that. Terror, but I would also mention, it’s very important for people to know, that we’ve now had the quietest year in Israel’s history. Gone an entire year without a terrorist fatality. We – really our first time. And that the economic conditions on the West Bank are excellent. They have a growth rate which is as high as 11%. Imagine that in today’s global economy, 11% growth, with tens of thousands of new jobs created. The Israeli army has pulled out of major Palestinian cities and they’ve been replaced by American-trained Palestinian security forces that are doing an exemplary job. There are many sources for optimism here. That doesn’t mean we can be Pollyannaish. That doesn’t mean we can think tomorrow peace is going to break out. We still face a very formidable challenges. But, again, in that historical perspective, today we are better poised to try to attempt to achieve that peace than perhaps than ever before.

BARON: I assume a significant part of your job as the Israeli ambassador to the United States is public relations, is to get Israel’s message to the American people and I was struck that you recently actually made an appearance on Comedy Central’s Colbert Report. Who were you trying to reach in these media appearances?

OREN: I’m trying to reach the people in this country, the people under say 25 years old who don’t necessarily listen to the evening news and who watch Colbert and get a lot of their information about what’s happening on those stations. Sometimes they watch The Daily Show. I went on The Daily Show as well earlier. And it’s not an easy interview, certainly. But I enjoyed it greatly and I think that Mr. Colbert and I actually had a very fruitful conversation at the end.

BARON:  But is it that Israel is losing the public relations battle for younger Americans, younger liberal Americans, even younger liberal American Jews?

OREN: I think we can do a much better job at reaching out to younger liberals, younger American Jews certainly. I think there’s a lot of misinformation out there. For younger American Jews, we have the solution in the form of the birthright program, which has taken a quarter of a million young Jews from the United States and around the world for a visit to Israel and they come back with a certain different perspective once they see Israel first hand. But it’s true. We could do a better job, and yes, we face a very formidable challenge there in reaching out to this group. Overall, though, it has to be stressed that support for Israel in this country is at an all-time high. Roughly 70% of the people of the United States define themselves as pro-Israel.

BARON: Michael Oren is Israel’s ambassador to the US. Ambassador Oren, thank you.

OREN: My pleasure, David.

BARON: After our interview with Ambassador Oren, we made several attempts to get Lebanese reaction to his allegation that Tuesday’s border skirmish was premeditated and coordinated. Lebanon’s mission to the United Nations said it could not comment on the ambassador’s charges. But the mission did refer us to the complaint Lebanon lodged with the United Nations on Tuesday. It called Israel’s actions in a disputed border territory “a flagrant contravention of Lebanese sovereignty and international law.” The Lebanese statement said Lebanon had asked that UN personnel, not Israeli troops, prune the tree. It noted that the Lebanese Army had fired warning shots over the heads of the work crew. But it said Israel responded to the warning with fire targeted at Lebanese troops.

Copyright ©2009 PRI’s THE WORLD. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to PRI’s THE WORLD. This transcript may not be reproduced, in whole or in part, without prior written permission. For further information, please email The World’s Permissions Coordinator at theworld@pri.org.