Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin says the world faces a growing “cult of violence,” and Moscow must not let events like those in Libya and Syria be repeated in Russia. Deborah Lutterbeck reports.

UK Foreign Secretary William Hague says Syria's president heads a "doomed regime as well as a murdering regime" (Photo: BBC)

The two countries, that are permanent members of the Security Council, see any such resolution as a potential violation of Syria’s sovereignty.

They were the receiving-end of a lot of criticism.

US secretary of state, Hillary Clinton responded, “What more do we need to know to act decisively in the Security Council?”

The BBC Russian service invited comments from listeners about Russia’s stand on Syria. These are some of the comments the service received. We’ve voiced the comments.

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Marco Werman: I’m Marco Werman, this is The World. In South Africa today the United States denied it’s trying to delay a new global climate deal until the year 2020. Some delegates at the UN climate talks underway this week in Durban think otherwise. They claim the US wants to delay the start of a legally binding treaty to cut greenhouse gas pollution because of political pressures at home. But chief US negotiator Todd Stern told reporters that the US supports a new European proposal for a global deal. That proposal was revealed just today, providing an unexpected glimmer of hope for substantial progress at this year’s climate summit. Whatever the outcome in Durban though it’s almost certain to be far short of what’s needed to meet the challenge posed by climate change over the next few decades. The process of trying to negotiate a new global treaty on greenhouse gases has nearly ground to a halt in the last few years. And that’s lead many observers to call for a different approach. Kelly Sims Gallagher is an associate professor of energy at environmental policy at the Fletcher School at Tufts University in Medford, Massachusetts. Kelly, has the UN process hit a wall in your opinion?

Kelly Sims Gallagher: I believe it has. It’s not that the United Nations process is fundamentally flawed, it’s that there isn’t any room or latitude within these negotiations for breakthrough ideas, for crossing issues, for…

Werman: So what do you see as promising alternatives?

Gallagher: In my view the United States and China need to have a different approach to these negotiations. The two countries need to step outside of the climate change issue and find a way to bridge their differences. And after they do that they can then bring a deal back to this negotiating forum.

Werman: Are you saying that these two huge greenhouse gas emitters should come up with some grand bargain that embraces a lot of environmental issues?

Gallagher: I’m saying that the two countries probably need to devise a grand bargain, but I think they probably need to look outside the environment in terms of tradeoffs to strike a deal.

Werman: And what about a little country like the Maldives? You know, that wouldn’t be part of that process, but are seriously affected and will be so in the next few years with sea rise?

Gallagher: I think it’s in their interest because fundamentally they need to get these two behemoth emitters to agree to emissions reductions. And that’s not happening in the UNFCCC process. The essence of the dilemma that we just repeatedly come up against is that the US and China won’t both agree to enter into an agreement.

Werman: What about just forgetting about trying to strike deals for binding emissions cuts and just pushing ahead on things like new adaptive energy technologies and market innovations that would help move the world away from fossil fuels?

Gallagher: Well, I’d argue that’s what we’ve been doing, but it’s clearly not enough because emissions are still rising and in fact, there was the biggest jump ever in annual emissions last year.

Werman: You know we ran a story on the show this week that was just hair raising in terms of ice melt and sea rise. After hearing that a lot of our listeners must be flabbergasted that global representatives can’t seem to get it together in Durban. Is it worth talking about who’s to blame for the failure of the UN climate process so far?

Gallagher: Well, it’s very hard not to point towards the United States because from 1992 and the original framework convention on climate change, the United States has failed to meet all of the commitments that it agreed to in these past treaties. And I don’t think anybody trusts at this point that the United States will actually achieve its 17% reduction that President Obama committed to in Copenhagen because there’s been no policy enacted to actually achieve that goal.

Werman: Well, the talks in Durban aren’t over yet, but tomorrow they will be. Do you hold out any hope for significant progress in the next 24 hours?

Gallagher: No.

Werman: Kelly Sims Gallagher, associate professor of energy and environmental policy at the Fletcher School at Tufts University, thanks a lot.

Gallagher: Thank you.

Copyright ©2009 PRI’s THE WORLD. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to PRI’s THE WORLD. This transcript may not be reproduced, in whole or in part, without prior written permission. For further information, please email The World’s Permissions Coordinator at theworld@pri.org.

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Durban Climate Change Conference (Photo: United Nations)

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Even in the Maldives, Climate Change Seems a Remote Threat for Many

Sunset at Guraidhoo, Maldives (Photo: Lily Jamali)

Sea Levels May Rise Faster Than Expected

Emperor Penguins adults with chicks. (Photo: Michael Van Woert, NOAA NESDIS, ORA)

Climate Change Talks in South Africa

The UN climate change conference is in Durban, South Africa, from 28 November to 9 December 2011. (Photo: Cien)

Climate Talks Face Stalemate

Host Marco Werman speaks with climate policy expert Kelly Sims Gallagher about the stalemate in the UN climate negotiations. Gallagher says it’s time for the US and China to step outside the UN process and try to reach a grand bargain on climate and other issues. Read more …

• Durban Climate Change Conference 2011
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Sunset at Guraidhoo, Maldives (Photo: Lily Jamali)

It’s not just a child’s imagination at work. The waves have entered his home many times before. Rizmee’s father, Khalid, says their island has always had erosion problems. But in recent years, he says, the tides have grown more extreme:

“It’s getting worse every year,” Khalid Adam says, sitting atop concrete blocks the family has stacked as protection against a flood. “The monsoon season gets stronger each year. The environmental scientists are talking about the sea levels rising, and we’re seeing the same thing.”

Sea level rise will be one of the most significant impacts of climate change, and the Maldives is among the most vulnerable countries. Its 1,200 islands average only about five feet above sea level, and the country’s president, Mohamed Nasheed, has been trying to bring his country’s plight to international attention. Two years ago, just before the big climate summit in Copenhagen, Nasheed staged a world-class publicity stunt by holding a meeting of his cabinet six feet underwater, to “let the world know what… will happen to the Maldives, if climate change is not checked.”

Nasheed said at the time that at best the Maldives had only fifty to seventy years before rising seas threatened the country’s existence. And the prospects have only gotten worse since then. Five years ago a UN climate report forecast a possible two feet of sea level rise by the year 2100. Now many scientists are predicting an even more dramatic rise.

But even in a country where citizens could end up among the world’s first big wave of climate refugees, many don’t share their president’s concern.

Mohamed Firushan, a Fisherman who lives not far from Khalid Adam on Guraidhoo, says he just doesn’t believe sea level is rising. Firushan says he read on an Islamic website that a scientist had recently visited the area and said that there has been no change to the sea level in the last forty years.

Islam is the official religion here in the Maldives, and some Muslims here say that if their country is inundated, it’s God’s will.

But even some who grasp the science aren’t all that concerned.

During a recent class at the Maldives National University in the capital Male, lecturer Ghaanim Mohamed asked his students if they think Maldivians are as worried as they should be. “When President Nasheed did that underwater cabinet meeting,” Mohamed queried his class, “do you think that we really got the message? Do we really believe that we are in danger?

“Personally I don’t feel that we are in danger” one of his students responded. “Because really, if we are sinking, we’ll find other alternatives. For example, reclaiming the islands to two meters or four meters. If it is not four meters we will reclaim to six meters. Maldivians are very creative.”

The student’s comments reflect the culture of a small island nation where people long ago got used to trying to save and even expand their land, and where reclamation—creating new land out of sediment dredged up from the ocean—is an ongoing project.

Seventy five miles from Male, for instance, residents of the island of Thulaadhoo saw their once-congested island grow by more than 40 acres last year. The new land may still be vulnerable to sea level rise this century, but many here view the danger of inundation as a thing of the past.

Zubair Ibrahim, who owns a workshop where he makes the lacquered crafts this island is famous for, has lived all of his 46 years on Thulaadhoo, and he remembers when islanders constantly wondered when Mother Nature would strike next…

“Back then, during high tide,” Ibrahim says, “the waves would just come in to the island. People’s homes would get flooded. There was nothing much we could do. We would maybe put a sand bag or something.“

Reclamation has changed that, at least for the time being.

“Now we have forgotten those days,” Ibrahim says. “Now it does not flood.”

In a sign of his hopefulness about the future here, Ibrahim is starting a museum of Thulaadhoo crafts.

Reclamation work is happening throughout the Maldives, and it’s led to a sense among many that man has conquered nature. But reclamation is very expensive, and it may well not be enough to stay ahead of the advancing tides.

Some Maldivians say the gap between the reality of the threat and perceptions isn’t just a matter of culture or religion. They say it’s also political.

Hussain Yaamin, an opposition party member and part of Guraidhoo’s island council, says President Nasheed hasn’t focused on the issue enough here at home.

“He didn’t talk about it with the people,” Yaamin says. “He talks about it in the international conferences. So in this island, many of these peoples don’t have that idea. They don’t know what he’s talking about even.”

President Nasheed says he agrees that his government needs to do more to make people aware of what’s happening. But environment minister Mohamed Aslam says even here, it can be hard to get people concerned about something as seemingly far off as climate change.

“Climate change, it’s a slow process if you put it into a human timescale,” Aslam says. “It’s a bit like a smoker who continues to smoke knowing that ultimately he’ll face the consequences of it.”

Aslam acknowledges, thought, that many Maldivians might not be aware of the global nature of the problem.

Back on Guraidhoo, Khalid Adam doesn’t use phrases like “global warming” or know the exact predictions for sea level rise. He just worries about his home.

“There is the fear that we won’t be able to live here one day,” Adam says. “But we won’t just passively watch while our home gets destroyed.

And so he’ll keep trying to protect his home, for as long as he can.

The UN climate change conference is in Durban, South Africa, from 28 November to 9 December 2011. (Photo: Cien)

International climate change negotiators are back at it his week in Durban, South Africa. Negotiators are scrambling to make significant progress in a process that seems to have fallen far behind the urgency of the the problem.

Anchor Marco Werman gets an update from the BBC’s environment correspondent, Richard Black.

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Marco Werman: I’m Marco Werman, this is The World, a coproduction of the BBC World Service, PRI and WGBH Boston. International climate change negotiators are back at it this week in Durban, South Africa. Negotiators are scrambling to make significant progress in a process that seems to have fallen far behind the urgency of the problem. Just this week there’s a new report out confirming that global emissions of carbon dioxide jumped by the largest amount ever last year. Scientists warn that the rapid growth in greenhouse gas emissions is putting the earth on track to dangerous warming in the next few decades. But a global agreement to cut those emissions still seems a dim hope. The BBC’s environment correspondent, Richard Black, joins us from the UN climate change conference in Durban. It’s not news to the delegates there, Richard, that the earth’s surface continues to warm up and that greenhouse gas pollution is likely the biggest culprit. I’m wondering though how much of a jolt this new analysis gives the proceedings there in Durban to actually break the gridlock and reach an agreement on cutting emissions.

Richard Black: Well, you’re absolutely right, it certainly isn’t news and it’s worth remembering that virtually all of the governments here are also fully signed up to the intergovernmental panel on climate change, which is something that’s been sounding the alarm on this since 1997. So basically, we had the car crash in Copenhagen a couple of years ago when all those massive expectations of a big global deal just fell off the table with a resounding crash. So part of what this is about is trying to implement some of the much smaller bits that were agreed in principle last year at the summit in Mexico, and then look at what’s possible in the years ahead.

Werman: So what are the key sticking points right now? Does it still come down to the same kind of place we’ve been for the last few years, the inability of the US and China, which are by far the largest greenhouse polluters, to commit to substantial cuts in their emissions?

Black: Yeah, it’s interesting. You’ve got lots of these big countries that have subtly different positions, so there’s no doubt, for example, that the US is now being joined by Canada. Canada sees itself, it wants to parallel the US as closely as it can, so both of them are unwilling to do anything looking up to 2020. China has got its own system, a five year plan. And then we have India, which over the last couple of years has been rather conciliatory, but this year has a new environment minister who’s being very hard line in saying that as a major developing country they shouldn’t really have to do very much. You’ve got the small island states and some of the least developed countries that are very worried about climate impacts, and they’re pushing for a lot of progress as soon as possible. And they’re largely backed by the European Union, which also wants to get cracking on talks for a new deal as soon as possible. And as you can see, Marco, there are very different visions of what the future ought to hold.

Werman: Now, the goal ultimately is an agreement on greenhouse gas emissions, but you’re saying the conference participants are kind of going to focus on smaller goals. Give us an example or two of those smaller goals and how that might lead the conference ultimately to a big agreement.

Black: Okay, so sure, so the one in which there’s probably most likelihood of actually finalizing something here is what’s called technology transfer. In the United Nations climate convention it’s acknowledged that developed countries should help poorer countries to develop cleanly. So one of the ways of doing this obviously is to transfer clean technology from rich countries where [inaudible 3:15] has been developed into the poorer countries. But there are issues there for example, over intellectual property. So how do you get an agreement there which satisfies everyone and you can actually start doing something on the ground? So that’s the kind of smaller agreement that may well be finalized here.

Werman: But you know, the real thing is to kind of get back to the ideas of the Kyoto Protocol, and that protocol expires next year. It’s the only truly global treaty right now on greenhouse gases. What happens then?

Black: Well, that’s a very good question and this is one of the things that’s brought urgency to the talks in the last couple of years. The protocol itself doesn’t expire. What expires are the commitments that a number of developed countries have made under it to reduce the greenhouse gas emission. So there’s a little concern around, particularly in developing countries, that if the EU and the other countries inside the Kyoto Protocol don’t make new pledges inside that protocol which kick in pretty soon, is the protocol a shell with no meaningful content even though it continues to exist? That’s the concern.

Werman: So if the Kyoto Protocol does become a shell as you say, and there is no agreement coming out of Durban, I mean it looks like the results in Durban could potentially be pretty dismal. I mean what is the bare minimum you expect to come out of this round of talks?

Black: Anything is possible and when you analyze what negotiators have been putting into the public domain, obviously they don’t give away everything at this stage. They probably don’t give away everything until the final night. But it could be a complete car crash. Equally, you could emerge with all these technical things from last year being tied up and you could end up with agreement of how to go forward, another try if you like, in reaching a global treaty. Anything across that spectrum is possible at the moment.

Werman: We’ll be checking back in through the week at the UN Climate Change Conference in Durban. The BBC’s Richard Black speaking with us from Durban, thanks so much.

Black: My pleasure.

Copyright ©2009 PRI’s THE WORLD. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to PRI’s THE WORLD. This transcript may not be reproduced, in whole or in part, without prior written permission. For further information, please email The World’s Permissions Coordinator at theworld@pri.org.

Today, Aisha will walk into a courtroom on the outskirts of Phnom Penh, and stare into the faces of the people she holds responsible for her misery.

“I’m not at peace with the Khmer Rouge. They killed my family. Even my niece—they killed her. She was only six months old,” Aisha said.

It’s been more than three decades since the Khmer Rouge fell from power. But the nightmares still keep Aisha awake at night. Aisha is a Cham Muslim, a minority group here. The Chams faced particular persecution under the Khmer Rouge for their religious beliefs.

“One day they forced me to eat the meat of the pig,” Aisha said, sobbing. “I can’t do that because it’s not allowed under Islam. I didn’t want to do it. I tried to beg them. But they said, if I don’t eat it, they’ll take me to a new place to live.”

It was a euphemism — for execution. In less than four years, the Khmer Rouge wiped out one-quarter of Cambodia’s population.

Monks stand outside the Khmer Rouge tribunal courtroom in Phnom Penh. (Photo: Irwin Loy)

Aisha once thought she would never see the day when Khmer Rouge leaders would face justice. Still, she’s only half convinced the United Nations-backed tribunal will bring her peace.

“The Khmer Rouge leaders are all old,” she said. “They could die before the court can bring me justice.”

But other Khmer Rouge victims have already given up on the court.

Theary Seng hurls darts at a giant photo of former Khmer Rouge head of state, Khieu Samphan — one of the three people on trial. The words “poetic justice” are pasted on the sides of her makeshift dartboard.

“I am getting my poetic justice on the face of Khieu Samphan, who I hold personally responsible for the deaths of my parents of my aunt and uncle, of two million other Cambodians,” she said, throwing another dart. “And since I’m not getting my justice in a court of law because the court of law has become a complete sham, I and other victims need to release our aggression and look for justice in other means.”

Seng was recognized by the court as an official Khmer Rouge victim—with the right to be represented at tribunal hearings. But she’s not participating in the trial – in protest, she said, of the court’s failings.

The tribunal set a precedent by allowing victims to participate directly in the first Khmer Rouge trial. But there are so many victims in thiscase, that the court appointed a team of lawyers to represent the nearly 4,000 individual civil parties. Seng said the court has reneged on its promise to involve the victims.

“There are a lot of beautiful phrases that are thrown out there, with victims’ reconciliation, national reconciliation, victims’ participation, but zero substance,” Seng said.

The court has also been criticized for its handling of two other cases still under investigation. Critics claim the court’s investigating body botched the investigation because of pressure from a Cambodian government that opposes further tribunals.

Clair Duffy, a legal monitor with the Open Society Justice Initiative, said this has raised questions “about the independence of the court, huge fair trial questions, and huge questions about justice for victims of Khmer Rouge atrocities.”

Students leave the Khmer Rouge tribunal courthouse after the first day of opening statements in the trial of three former senior regime leaders. (Photo: Irwin Loy)

Youk Chhang, who directs the Documentation Centre of Cambodia, whose archives form the foundation of the court’s evidence, said the court does need reform. But he added that the concept of justice is different for every Cambodian — and that shouldn’t negate the importance of putting the Khmer Rouge leaders on trial.

“What can the court bring to me? Can it bring back my sister? Can it bring back to me their life? Can you bring back justice at our own terms? Can it put all of them into a life sentence in prison? No. So what’s in it? It’s a process. We have to take back the history. We have to take charge of our own life history,” Chhang said.

At the end of the first day of the proceedings, Kup Aisha stood outside the courtroom. She said she tried to look into the eyes of the Khmer Rouge leaders on trial.

“When I looked at their faces, I felt so much anger. If I was a man, or a stronger person, maybe I would have tried to hit them. They did so much damage to my family, but they just sit there without anything to worry about,” she said. “It didn’t feel good, to see them.”

This trial is expected to last at least two years.

They didn’t.

Anchor Marco Werman speaks with archeologist Hafed Walda of Kings College in London.

Dr. Walda thanked NATO at a conference last week in Rome for sparing Libya’s antiquities.

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Marco Werman: Outside military intervention in Syria seems a remote possibility. In Libya, by contrast, NATO’s air campaign was widely seen as decisive in the eventual overthrow of Muammar Gaddafi. But NATO’s raids in Libya felt a couple of places there unchanged and that’s a good thing. We’re talking the ancient cities of Sabratha and Leptis Magna. They are considered to be among the most magnificent Roman ruins anywhere. Libyan-born archeologist Hafed Walda is with Kings College, London. I’d like you to tell us Dr. Walda just how crucial it was for NATO to avoid any collateral damage at the sites of these Roman ruins. But describe for us, first of all, Leptis Magna and Sabratha because I am sure a lot of our listeners won’t know these two sites very well.

Hafed Walda: They are, more or less, untouched because they were covered by sand after they had been abandoned in the late Roman period. The sand stayed there covering the antiquities until the late 19th century once people started knowing about them. The backdrop is the blue Mediterranean. So, it is an idyllic place; it’s breathtaking.

Werman: Magnificent sites as you say and ones which potentially could have suffered greatly during the fighting to unseat Gaddafi from power. At a recent conference in Rome, Hafed Walda, you gave an update on what’s been happening at Leptis and Sabratha and you actually thanked NATO for sparing them. What do you know about NATO’s bombing strategy when it came to Sabratha and Leptis? Were there strict orders not to go anywhere near these two cities?

Walda: I know the strategy to avoid hitting any cultural heritage areas because we have been supplying them with [code nets???] via an organization called The Blue Shield which gives NATO and America [code nets???] of heritage sites to avoid and not to damage them. At one time, an area near Leptis Magna - it's a hilly area - there is a radar setting by the troops of Gaddafi; I went there and, to my astonishment, every single radar were hit by missiles and there is a Roman arch next to them that hasn't moved at all.

Werman: Wow! That's amazing!

Walda: It was very impressive.

Werman: I heard that early on in the battles Gaddafi loyalists were said to be hiding weapons in Sabratha - in the ruins, thinking that they would be protected there. Do you know whether NATO was prepared to take those weapons out if they had to?

Walda: I think they are not really high-caliber weapons and they are not threatening to the civilians. At the same time, the guards of the antiquities were persuaded not to endanger themselves and endanger the site.

Werman: What do you think that says about the overall appreciation in Libya of these Roman ruins? I mean, people must really value them.

Walda: They value them but, I'm afraid, it's not all of Libya that is like that because the previous regime disconnected heritage from the identity of Libya. Only the identity of Libya is linked to the Gaddafi's heritage. We want heritage to be a top priority as much as health, education and other things.

Werman: Hafed Walda, you were born and raised in Libya before moving to London. How large do sites like Sabratha and Leptis play in your own imagination? What do they mean to you personally?

Walda: They mean a lot to me because this is why I became an archeologist. I lived not far from Leptis and my father used to take us to Leptis Magna to go and see the ruins. He never explained exactly what are the building and history, but I tried very hard to get that information. Leptis Magna is not just history, it's the art, it's the architecture, it's the setting. It's the whole set of things. It's fantastically rich and it excites my imagination - I can't tell you more.

Werman: Hafed Walda, Research Fellow at Kings College, London, thank you very much indeed.

Walda: Thank you very much.

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Lisa Mullins: As the Protest against the Assad regime continues in Syria, the people in Libya are taking the first steps toward a post Gaddafi future. But they are also distracted by lingering questions about how Muammar Gaddafi was killed last week. The interim government says the opposed dictator died in crossfire after capture. The chief investigator for human rights watch in Libya says Gaddafi was illegally executed by the rebels who found him. Videos from cell phones clearly show brutal treatment of Gaddafi immediately after his capture. Many of those video were located and published by the online news site Global Post. Tom Mucha is Editor at Global Post, he’s in Boston. How did you get your hands on these videos Tom?

Tom Mucha: Well we got our hands on these videos through our correspondent on the ground insert, Tracy Shelton, who arrived on the scene moments after the actual event happened. She procured these video sources from the actual rebels who were there on the scene.

Mullins: From the rebels who shot them themselves?

Mucha: Correct, mobile phone video footage that the rebels shot themselves.

Mullins: When they came to you did they have to be authenticated?

Mucha: Yes, we very much counted on the reporting instincts in town of our correspondents on the ground to verify this information and she did that by interviewing many of the rebels who were there on the scene.

Mullins: And then what happens, Tom, in a case like this? First describe the videos because the reason we are talking to you is because the videos are so graphic and there are many news organizations that have issued cautions about how much should be used or can be used. What was the process when you saw these videos? And tell us what these videos contain.

Mucha: It was the earliest known footage of Gaddafi being pulled from his hiding place and being captured by the rebels so when we had this information we can be in a meeting of our most senior staff at Global Post and carefully examine what we had in our possession. And it became very clear to us that this was clearly news, particularly as the international community was demanding formal investigations about what happened and the president of Libya’s National Transitional Council was claiming that Gaddafi was killed by his own supporters. So when you have conflicting accounts it’s the role of journalism to present the facts as we collect them. So, our decision making process was to run the videos with ample warnings throughout about the graphic nature of the content.

Mullins: This was when they were mocking him, they were physically attacking him and in one case it appears that he is being sodomized as well with some kind of a stick or a knife. When you saw those, how did you determine how much of those videos you wanted to run on your site.

Mucha: Well we looked at those videos and we actually did a frame by frame analysis of the actual event. The actual event, Lisa, took place in less than a second. So what we did is we isolated those individual frames that clearly showed what had happened. And then we showed the video in its entirety, which was about 3:30 minutes long.

Mullins: Can you tell us in your own experience, not only as editor of Global Post, but in your journalistic experience how things have changed in terms of images that now tell us what happened in an event, but then also have an afterlife? Give us your own experience in cases like these.

Mucha: We are finding that it is very popular with news audiences because people want to see events as they happen. It’s raw, its visceral, it’s in real time, it’s delivering information that people want without filters and without multiple layers. This new technology allows viewers to really get a first draft of what’s happening in a way that was never really possible before. Imagine if mobile phone cameras had been around when Mussolini executed in Italy or when Ceauşescu was shot by his own people in Romania. Coverage of that would have been ubiquitous. Now imagine if 9/11 had occurred yesterday, the amount of video coverage of that even would have been overwhelming. You would have had literally thousands of tiny personalized records of that day, from multiple sources, multiple locations, multiple perspectives. At Global Post, how do we look at this? We view these as new reporting tools, which can’t be controlled by any one news organization, but they offer new opportunities for smart journalists to tell better and more complete stories on consequential topics like this one in Libya.

Mullins: Tom Mucha, Editor of Global Post in Boston, thank you.

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Caution: This video contains graphic imagery

BBC Interactive: How Gaddafi Died

Libya Coverage on The World

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A National Transitional Council (NTC) official told the BBC the bodies were buried at dawn in an unknown location.

This follows days of apparent uncertainty among the new leadership about what to do with the bodies.

Anchor Lisa Mullins speaks with Peter Bouckaert of Human Rights Watch who says Gaddafi was executed without trial.

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Lisa Mullins: I’m Lisa Mullins and this The World. Muammar Gaddafi was buried in the Libyan desert today. The location is a secret. That’s to keep the site from becoming a shrine for supporters or a target for vandals, but the move does nothing to quell international calls for an investigation into how the deposed Libyan dictator was killed. Libya’s interim leaders says Gaddafi was killed in crossfire, but the main investigator for Human Rights Watch in Libya thinks otherwise. Peter Bouckaert is in Misrata and he’s concluded that both Gaddafi and his son, Mutassim, were illegally executed.

Peter Bouckaert: We know that Muammar and his son Muttasim were captured alive, that they were not fatally wounded. We know that both men were quite brutally treated, especially Muammar. That evening, a young fighter arrived at the place we were staying and showed me a hand full of hair that he had pulled out of Muammar Gaddafi’s head, but they were certainly not fatally wounded. So somewhere after their capture and after they were removed from the scene of their capture, they were shot and killed by Misrata based rebels. Not in crossfire, but basically executed, in our opinion.

Mullins: In your opinion they were executed. There are report, in fact we have seen them. James Foley filed on for GlobalPost showing one of the rebels saying, “Yes, one person came up and fired once in Gaddafi’s head.” Have you been able to verify that yourself?

Bouckaert: Well, we have seen those reports. We do not believe that the fatal shot was fired at the scene where Muammar Gaddafi was captured. We believe he was killed at some point after he was taken away from the scene of his capture, and it’s even clearer that his son, Mutassim, was executed after he was captured because we have video footage showing him sitting on a couch, smoking a cigarette, drinking water, and speaking to his captors. Certainly not with any kind of fatal wounds on his body.

Mullins: There are Libyans who are saying at the same time, “We don’t really care how they died and how Gaddafi himself died.” Why do you believe that they should care?

Bouckaert: I think they should care because it’s not just about the death of Muammar Gaddafi and his son, Mutassim. They are certainly very hated people in Libya. I believe that it would have been much better if they had been put on trial to answer for their crimes rather than executed, but the much larger question is about the lack of control that the transitional council has over many of these fighting groups which are now acting with impunity.

Mullins: You know, now Libya’s interim Oil and Finance Minister issued a statement talking about the fighters who may have executed Gaddafi and I want to just play this for you now.

Libya’s interim Oil and Finance Minister: Until yesterday we were defending ourselves against this killer and in war things happen. So these are young men who saw their friends killed in front of them, who saw their cities burned, who saw their sisters raped and I’m amazed of the self control that they had.

Mullins: Peter, what does one do now with the impulse of mob justice. I mean you’re looking ahead to the rule of law, but what happens to the kind of that these people feel after being under Gaddafi’s thumb for decades?

Bouckaert: Well that’s what leadership is all about. The new leadership has said that they don’t want to see vengeance, that they want to see justice for those committed crimes and reconciliation between different communities. A war is fought between people on different sides and it’s very important that entire communities such as the towns of Bani Walid and Sirte and Sebha and Tawargha are not victimized for the crimes commited by some of their residents and yesterday I was driving back from Sirte to Misrata and we stopped at the town of Tawargha and watched rebel forces burn homes right in front of our eyes until they started firing into the air to send us a clear message that we should leave. If people from these town feel that they are the losers and subjected to vengeance and that their houses are being burned and they return to towns like Sirte and find the bodies of their neighbors executed by rebel forces, there really is a risk of civil war and the situation spinning out of control in Libya.

Mullins: That is Peter Bouckaert who is Emergencies Director for Human Rights Watch. He spoke with us from Misrata, Libya.

Copyright ©2009 PRI’s THE WORLD. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to PRI’s THE WORLD. This transcript may not be reproduced, in whole or in part, without prior written permission. For further information, please email The World’s Permissions Coordinator at theworld@pri.org.

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The text below is a phonetic transcript of a radio story broadcast by PRI’s THE WORLD. It has been created on deadline by a contractor for PRI. The transcript is included here to facilitate internet searches for audio content. Please report any transcribing errors to theworld@pri.org. This transcript may not be in its final form, and it may be updated. Please be aware that the authoritative record of material distributed by PRI’s THE WORLD is the program audio.

Lisa Mullins: I’m Lisa Mullins and this is The World. Libya’s National Transitional Council has authorized an investigation into how Muammar Gaddafi died. The interim government’s leader announced the investigative committee today. Videos of the captured dictator raised concerns around the world. The images showed a bleeding and confused Gaddafi being pushed around by a mob. Gaddafi’s body meanwhile remains in cold storage now in a room in Misrata. Libya’s new leaders are debating what to do with the corpse. The BBC’s Gabriel Gatehouse is in Misrata and he says authorities there tried to stop the body’s public display today.

Gabriel Gatehouse: The commander there seemed to be quite reluctantly closing the gates. He tried to close them several times and each time he got there a few more people would arrive saying no, no, cue it up, please let us in. This went on for an hour or so before they finally did manage to shut it down. Now, he said he was under orders form on high not to let anybody else tomorrow. I think in a sense the body is this grisly spectacle. The body of Colonel Gaddafi has become a political bargaining chip; the fighters of Misrata captured him. That’s what they did, it’s their war trophy. And I think the delay in his burial is in part explained by some behind the scenes maneuvering, positioning for power in a country which has absolutely no precedent or experience for plural politics.

Mullins: They have no experience whatsoever, which makes me wonder to what extent the authorities, transitional authorities are interested in imposing the rule of law. I mean does it seem as if that’s one of the reasons they’re closing the doors and trying to move on with this aside from the politics?

Gatehouse: I think they are interested in imposing the rule of law. I think if you look at what the head of the National Transitional Council, Mr. Abdul Jalil is saying and the noises that are coming out of Benghazi, you will see that they are interested, I think, in trying to implement the rule of law, trying to present a civilized and unified face not only to the outside world, but also to their own people. The question I think is to what extent are they able to because this is a country that’s had its regime toppled by a disparate group of brigades that are in a sense only to themselves, the Misratans don’t even answer to a Misratan command structure, these are people under the command of their own people and they answer only to themselves. This is a country awash with guns, full of independent minded people, and it’s going to take a very concerted, almost superhuman effort, I think to disarm this country, disarm all of these people, persuade them to hand in their guns or join the regular army…and to instill some kind of common purpose, to corral them all into a single direction while at the same time making everyone feel like they’ve got a stake in this new country.

Mullins: There’s a lot going on, not only in the country, but it sounds like right behind you, Gabriel. Can you tell us, I mean you’re in Misrata. I don’t know if you’re near where the body is right at this minute, but what is happening there?

Gatehouse: Oh, it’s about a 10 minute drive away from here actually, it’s on the outskirts of town, but for the past four nights we’ve seen wild and crazy celebrations in this town ever since Colonel Gaddafi was captured and killed. Every evening it has gone mad here. People have been driving at breakneck speed around the streets of this city doing handbrake turns, terrible screeches, firing off guns into the air; not just Kalashnikovs I might add, but heavy caliber anti-aircraft machine guns; and also fireworks. Sometimes at first it’s difficult to distinguish between the two. I have to say that what’s going on behind me now is relatively quiet. It seems that after three days of nonstop partying these people have decided to give it a bit of a rest tonight. But the mood here has been absolutely jubilant and now that Colonel Gaddafi is dead, people seem to be released from any inhibitions that they’d earlier been living under.

Mullins: Yeah, that’s for sure, you can tell by some of the noises behind you right now. I hope you’re safe, Gabriel, but assuming that you are let me just ask you a couple more quick things here. What happens to Gaddafi’s body right now? Do we know?

Gatehouse: We don’t. I’ve been speaking to a source who’s very well connected and who’s been very reliable on this so far, and he says there are talks ongoing between the military authorities from Misrata who captured Colonel Gaddafi and the political authorities in Benghazi, who now supposedly run this country on what to do with it. But the issue hasn’t been resolved. And this man said to me that it’s possible he’ll be buried on Tuesday in Misrata rather than Sirte. I think the feeling is that they don’t want it to be public burial. I think there are quite a lot of people who are against the idea of releasing it to members of his, of Colonel Gaddafi’s extended family. I think they want to avoid any possibility that his final resting place could become some sort of a shrine. But at the moment we are no clearer on what’s actually happening.

Mullins: All right, the BBC’s Gabriel Gatehouse in Misrata, Libya. Thank you for the latest, Gabriel.

Gatehouse: My pleasure.

Copyright ©2009 PRI’s THE WORLD. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to PRI’s THE WORLD. This transcript may not be reproduced, in whole or in part, without prior written permission. For further information, please email The World’s Permissions Coordinator at theworld@pri.org.

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Under Islamic tradition burial should have taken place as soon as possible. But Libya’s oil minister said the remains may be kept “for a few days.”

It is unclear whether the ex-leader will be buried in Sirte, where he was killed on Thursday, in Misrata where the body has been taken, or elsewhere.

Lisa Mullins talks with Reporter Marine Olivesi in Misrata.

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The text below is a phonetic transcript of a radio story broadcast by PRI’s THE WORLD. It has been created on deadline by a contractor for PRI. The transcript is included here to facilitate internet searches for audio content. Please report any transcribing errors to theworld@pri.org. This transcript may not be in its final form, and it may be updated. Please be aware that the authoritative record of material distributed by PRI’s THE WORLD is the program audio.

LISA MULLINS: To Libya now, the country’s interim authorities have delayed the burial of Muammar Gaddafi. Libya’s new interim leaders reportedly cannot agree on what to do with the former dictator’s body, and there are lingering questions about how Gaddafi was killed yesterday. The United Nations is asking for a full investigation. We’re going to hear from a UN human rights official later in the program. First, we turn to reporter, Marine Olivesi. She’s in the Libyan city of Misrata, and that is where Gaddafi’s body is right now. Yesterday, Olivesi went to a private home. It was on the outskirts of the city where the bodies of Muammar Gaddafi and his son, Mo-Tassim, were on public display. She recorded this sound of the chaotic scene with people crowding into the large room to see the bodies. Olivesi says the owner of the house was a businessman well connected to the military units in Misrata.

MARINE OLIVESI: The word got around that you could actually see Muammar Gaddafi, and a lot of people starting crowding around the place. They had to restrict the access even though the crowd was hardly manageable. People were crowding around. They all wanted to see the former leader for themselves. Several people said, “Until I’ve seen him with my own eyes, I won’t believe he is dead.” When you enter that main sort of living room or a storage room, you could see the two bodies on the ground, on mattresses. Muammar Gaddafi was… It was quite difficult to see what exactly had killed him because Mo-Tassim Gaddafi had definitely some big holes in his body, one on his throat. Muammar Gaddafi didn’t seem to have extensive injuries. His face was a little muddy. There was a little dried blood on his face, but you couldn’t see where the worst injuries were on his body. In any case, everybody was crowding around taking snapshots with him. People were just touching his belly, was touching his hair. There was a sense of dealing with him as an object or someone very new, that’s for sure.

MULLINS: So that’s where you saw Muammar Gaddafi’s body as well as the body of his son, Mo-Tassim. Where is Gaddafi right now?

OLIVESI: The public’s viewing of him was between 6:00 and 8:00 PM yesterday local time, and then he was taken to a secret place where apparently he would undergo a DNA test and undergo autopsy. There, the general public was not able to see the body.

MULLINS: So, this was to put a final point on the fact that he was indeed dead, but I wonder were the people that you were talking to, especially in Misrata, how widespread is the sentiment that Gaddafi should have been captured alive and faced trial?

OLIVESI: Honestly, I have not met one single Libyan so far who’s expressed that view. They all said that they were scared if Muammar Gaddafi was still alive, as long as he would be alive, they would be scared that he could prepare for a comeback. Just a few days ago, remember, too the National Transitional Council expressed concerns that Muammar Gaddafi might be preparing for a big comeback with the help of other African countries where he has a lot of allies there. These kind of stipulations, some people think it would have gone on and on as long as Muammar Gaddafi was alive. Several people said that now that he’s dead, it puts an end once and for all to the rumours and we’re sure that he won’t be a threat anymore, and that era is behind us now.

MULLINS: All right, reporter Marine Olivesi in Misrata, Libya. Thank you.

OLIVESI: You’re welcome.

Copyright ©2009 PRI’s THE WORLD. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to PRI’s THE WORLD. This transcript may not be reproduced, in whole or in part, without prior written permission. For further information, please email The World’s Permissions Coordinator at theworld@pri.org.

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The text below is a phonetic transcript of a radio story broadcast by PRI’s THE WORLD. It has been created on deadline by a contractor for PRI. The transcript is included here to facilitate internet searches for audio content. Please report any transcribing errors to theworld@pri.org. This transcript may not be in its final form, and it may be updated. Please be aware that the authoritative record of material distributed by PRI’s THE WORLD is the program audio.

LISA MULLINS: The human rights office of the United Nations is asking for a full investigation of Muammar Gaddafi’s death. Widely seen videos of the former Libyan dictator’s capture show him bloodied and confused but alive. Other images show him dead. What happened in between those two sets of images is what the UN wants to know about. Meanwhile, Libya’s National Transitional Council has delayed Gaddafi’s burial. His body is reportedly now being kept in a morgue in Misrata. Rupert Colville is the United Nations human rights spokesperson. Why does Gaddafi’s death need UN investigating?

RUPERT COLVILLE: Well, because as you pointed out, there are these two videos, one showing him alive, captured but alive, and another one showing him dead. The big question is how did he die? There are four or five different versions of how he died. Some of those versions suggest some kind of combat situation, and some suggest something like an ex judicial summary execution. According to the laws of war, if someone’s killed in combat, that’s acceptable in most circumstances. That’s an unfortunate product of war; it kills people. But a summary execution is never legal. It’s like torture; it’s always illegal.

MULLINS: Do you have any evidence right now that there was indeed a summary execution?

COLVILLE: No, but I think these two videos, put them together and they become very disturbing. You see a man who’s alive and captured, and then you see the same man dead. That does raise questions.

MULLINS: How do you go about finding out what happened in between?

COLVILLE: I don’t want to put too much emphasis on it because we shouldn’t forget there is thousands of other people who’ve been killed in Libya. It’s not all about Gaddafi. We’re saying it should be investigated. We need more clarity about what happened here first because it’s the law, and the law is the law. Secondly, I think it’s important that the rule of law in established in the new Libya. Libya really changed yesterday with the death of Gaddafi, but it’s facing a huge task ahead in terms of establishing a justice system, police, all the basic building blocks of a civilized society that Gaddafi did not have in palce over the previous 42 years.

MULLINS: What happens in a practical way? Is anyone from the UN…? Presumably, they’re right now talking to people who saw Gaddafi alive and can say what happened between then and when we have pictures of him dead.

COLVILLE: Well, we’ll have to see. I don’t want to prejudge how the commissioner inquiry will function. I can’t tell you exactly what they’ll do and when they’ll do it. But obviously, when you’re looking into human rights violations, it’s not like building a prosecution case. You don’t have to have as much evidence, as much detail. You’re looking at it in terms of probability. You do need usually at least two independent sources before you start determining something is likely to have happened. Depending on what they find and how strong it is, they might make some recommendations. They might recommend further follow-up. They might recommend the Libyans, themselves, set up some kind of inquiry or the Libyans, themselves, may do that anyway. There are many possibilities. It doesn’t have to be outsiders coming in dictating to the Libyans how to do it. They might themselves do it. You see some statements by the interim authorities that show they realize there is potentially a problem here.

MULLINS: Is this a war crime if there was a summary execution of Gaddafi?

COLVILLE: It’s a serious international crime. Whether if it’s a war crime or not depends on the circumstances. But it’s a serious international crime, and it’s prohibited. It’s like murder. Murder is murder, and it can’t be justified. You might hardly dislike the person you’ve murdered, but it doesn’t change the fact that it is a murder.

MULLINS: Speaking to us from Geneva, Rupert Colville, the UN spokesperson for human rights. The United Nations wants to investigate the circumstances of Gaddafi’s death. Thank you, Rupert Colville.

COLVILLE: You’re welcome.

Copyright ©2009 PRI’s THE WORLD. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to PRI’s THE WORLD. This transcript may not be reproduced, in whole or in part, without prior written permission. For further information, please email The World’s Permissions Coordinator at theworld@pri.org.

Read the Transcript
The text below is a phonetic transcript of a radio story broadcast by PRI’s THE WORLD. It has been created on deadline by a contractor for PRI. The transcript is included here to facilitate internet searches for audio content. Please report any transcribing errors to theworld@pri.org. This transcript may not be in its final form, and it may be updated. Please be aware that the authoritative record of material distributed by PRI’s THE WORLD is the program audio.

Lisa Mullins: I’m Lisa Mullins and this is The World. Celebratory gunfire and car horns filled the air across Libya today after the country’s National Transitional Council confirmed the death of Muammar Gaddafi. The Libyan dictator was killed in Sirte, his hometown. Sirte was the last stronghold of Gaddafi loyalists. That is, until today when Transitional Council forces launched a final assault and overran loyalist defenses. The BBC’s Rana Jawad is in the capital, Tripoli. Rana, what is it like in Tripoli today?

Rana Jawad: Well, there’ve been scenes of celebration throughout the day as news of Colonel Gaddafi’s death circulates here quite quickly. People took to the streets on foot, by car; they were all singing, some of them were dancing and a lot of jubilation here at the news as far as those who’ve long been opposed to the regime and Colonel Gaddafi’s rule for the last 42 years. It’s a historical moment for a lot of people here today. There were people out on the streets even giving out what was later dubbed as revolutionary mints and biscuits just to celebrate that news as a show of Arab hospitality to every car that was passing by. And so there really is a sense of people coming together today celebrating for one cause.

Mullins: What about the fact that Gaddafi, Rana, was officially no longer in power. His government is not officially in power any longer. Do Libyans see this as more than a symbolic event?

Jawad: They don’t just see it as symbolic. I have to say that a lot of people here and not just ordinary residents, but even the transitional authorities themselves were worried that as long as Colonel Gaddafi remained at large, especially in the country, that we would always be capable of somehow rallying up support, whether it’s from neighboring countries, because he’s had extremely good relations with various Taureg tribes in the deserts of Negev and Mali. So there was always a worry that some form of insurrection would take hold so long as Colonel Gaddafi stayed alive. So that is why people are celebrating today. It’s not just a symbolic victory.

Mullins: So do people also feel that with Gaddafi’s death that Tripoli and Libya can be unified? Because there were concerns that with tribal divisions that his death might actually prove to be a divisive force.

Jawad: Well, if I may put some things into perspective. When we speak of tribes in Libya, I think for the most part the tribal card was played up by Colonel Gaddafi’s dying days in the regime. Tribes here play a mostly social role for the better part of 40 years. Colonel Gaddafi made sure they didn’t wield any power that threatened his rule, but it was only in the last few months that he was speaking to them in a manner that made them believe that they had more powers. And a lot of people saw that as his way of trying to divide the country as the uprising escalated into a conflict here very quickly.

Mullins: Rana, one last question for you, you’ve been watching this unfold throughout the entire rebellion and uprising, and I know that your movements have been somewhat limited there for various reasons. What does, how are things different for you today?

Jawad: On a personal level it has been a dramatic change. I have reported on this country for seven years. I’ve always you know, looked back and I will always look back and remember Libyans for the better part of my career here in Libya running away from the microphone rather than you know, welcoming it in any shape or form. And since Tripoli fell there’s been tremendous change. And all people want to do now is talk, is express their opinions. Some people will say they’re expressing too many opinions, people aren’t used to it yet. But you know, it’s been a tremendous time for many Libyans here. And I’ve seen the change and I’ve noticed the impact the fall of the regime has had on people here. And it’s not likely one that will ever be forgotten for many here.

Mullins: That was the BBC’s Rana Jawad speaking to us from Tripoli. You could hear the celebratory gunfire in the background there.

Copyright ©2009 PRI’s THE WORLD. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to PRI’s THE WORLD. This transcript may not be reproduced, in whole or in part, without prior written permission. For further information, please email The World’s Permissions Coordinator at theworld@pri.org.

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In Pictures: Libyans Celebrate Death Of Gaddafi

Reactions from around the world to reports that ousted leader Col Muammar Gaddafi has been killed.

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